What Would The Christian Rather See?

[Adrift]

Muslim. I actually think evangelism might be slightly easier in a Muslim nation where we at least we share some common ground. And seeing as Christians are considered one of the people of the book, depending on the Muslim state, Christians might be a protected class, whereas Christianity has seen severe persecution under atheist regimes.

Question: Why are agnostics excluded from the available options?

OP is riffing off a thread seer created called What Would The Atheist Rather See? where the only options were Christianity or Islam.

[Meh Gerbil]

Question: Why are agnostics excluded from the available options?

Do those even exist?

[guacamole]

For the metal, right?

I'm only down with heavy mithril.

[guacamole]

Why? If we'd allow Islam to thrive in its purity rather than cause conflict through "oil greed" then Islam has the potential to return to its "golden age" when it lead the world in science, mathematics, medicine & formalised education.

I think you are mired in confusion with the western imposed situation in the middle east, which only contains 20% of the 1,8 billion Muslims distributed throughout the world.

In the absence of Christianity, or for that matter Judaism, at the least, Islam maintains the ethics & morality common to the three Abrahamic religions which has allowed western society to prosper.

I'm operating on a "here-and-now" fantasy situation--that is, if someone now forced me to move or be a refugee, where would I want to end up? I have no doubt that in the past the Muslims produced some pretty hunky-dory civilizations. But right now, they seem to produce dictators or fanatics. It is completely possible--even likely--that my country is a large contributor to this.

So you want the world economy to collapse! Japan has so many social properties that it has taken numerous book to document them. It is a complete economic & social basket case. Japanese academics openly admit it!

No I want to live in the country of Basho, Anime, Manga, crazy ice cream, and ultra modern living conditions.

Why haven't you considered Indonesia? Is it because, according to USA data, Indonesia is the 3rd largest democracy in the world and the largest Muslim nation in the world?

Only because I'm not that smart and don't know that much about Indonesia. I think I get Indonesia and Malaysia confused. Like most Americans, I get different brownish people confused. I'm sorry.

Have a look at the UN stats! You might then reappraise...

True.

China is a possibility but it is far from an atheistic nation! Which is why its govt has the occasional purges to suppress discent...

The government's position is that Atheism is the official state ideology.

What about Russia. These days, with the re-emerge ROC, Putin is claiming Russian is now the last Christian nation on earth. If so then secularism already dominates the globe!

In Russia, I imagine, for demographic & geographic reasons, that Islam would fill the gap should Christianity fade away...

Skip the beheading. Grow a beard, give up booze & tabacco, attend Mosque, pray five times a day and under ISIS you might be OK. As a male ISIS does provide benefits, but thinking about the number of mother-in-laws one might accumulate under ISIS, I just might opt for North Korea as a better option :-{

Even if I were to hide myself while living in a conservative Muslim country, I would probably still run afoul of their strict codes and laws.

Question: Why are agnostics excluded from the available options?

I don't know of any officially agnostic nations.

fwiw,
guacamole

[Mountain Man]

I think Muslims, as a whole, are more tolerant of competing world views than atheists. If we're talking about extremes, there's not much difference between a militant Muslim and a militant atheist.

[Trout]

I cannot imagine a world ruled by people with sparse, wispy facial hair, bad glasses, socks and sandals, Ill fitting chinos, nauseating halitosis, delusions of grandeur, hair trigger tempers ... give me the Muslims any old day.

[Cerebrum123]

Why? If we'd allow Islam to thrive in its purity rather than cause conflict through "oil greed" then Islam has the potential to return to its "golden age" when it lead the world in science, mathematics, medicine & formalised education.

I think you are mired in confusion with the western imposed situation in the middle east, which only contains 20% of the 1,8 billion Muslims distributed throughout the world.

The only reason Islam ever had any of those things was by conquering those who formulated it in the first place. The "Islamic Golden Age" was purely a result of it's attempts at world conquest.

In the absence of Christianity, or for that matter Judaism, at the least, Islam maintains the ethics & morality common to the three Abrahamic religions which has allowed western society to prosper.

Islam's ethics are almost always the polar opposite of Christianity and Judaism. Muslims claim otherwise in public, but the Koran and Hadith show the depravity of Islam in all it's demonic details.

snipped for space.

Nothing personal, but I don't have an interest in Japanese economics.

Skip the beheading. Grow a beard, give up booze & tabacco, attend Mosque, pray five times a day and under ISIS you might be OK. As a male ISIS does provide benefits, but thinking about the number of mother-in-laws one might accumulate under ISIS, I just might opt for North Korea as a better option :-{

Question: Why are agnostics excluded from the available options?[/QUOTE]

ISIS is really just following the teachings of Mohammed. He had sex with a 9 year old girl when he was in his 50's, her name was Aisha. He tortured a man for money, he beheaded his enemies and critics, he commanded his followers to violently subjugate all non-believers etc.

Abu Afak was one of the B. Amr b. Auf of the B. Ubayda clan. He showed his disaffection when the apostle killed al-Harith b. Suwayd b. Samit and said:

Long have I lived but never have I seen An assembly or collection of people More faithful to their undertaking And their allies when called upon Than the sons of Qayla when they assembled, Men who overthrew mountains and never submitted, A rider who came to them split them in two (saying) "Permitted", "Forbidden", of all sorts of things. Had you believed in glory or kingship You would have followed Tubba.

The apostle said, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" Whereupon Salim b. Umayr, brother of B. Amr b. Auf, one of the "weepers", went forth and killed him. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, p. 675)

Kinana b. al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has," so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, p. 515)

Sahih al-Bukhari 3896—Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Al-Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he wrote the marriage (wedding) contract with Aishah when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih al-Bukhari 5158—Narrated Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Muslim 3310—Aisha reported: Allah’s Apostle married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Qur’an 9:30—And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Qur’an 98:6—Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures.

Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”

Al-Bukhari, Al-Adab al-Mufrad 1103—Muhammad said: “Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road.”

5:32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

[1]5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

[2]8:12—Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

1.The previous verse is often used to try and paint Islam as against killing, but if you read it it says that said passage was ordained "for the Children of Israel", meaning the Jews. This verse is the one Muslims are to follow. It's a rather stark contrast.

2. This is about the Battle of Badr, where many people were beheaded. The Meccans only had those troops there to protect their caravans from Mohammed's repeated attacks.

[The Thinker]

The ones with the power to coerce were far more oppressive than any religious group. Even in the West where atheists are relatively weak they oppress every change they get. That's why I'm betting on muslims. I know they can produce something resembling a tolerant civilization that doesn't quickly devolve into suicidally crazy.

How do they oppress?

Atheists have yet to demonstrate that.

Have you been to northern Europe?

Most likely western style atheists would quickly be slaughtered by the more militant and fanatical ones.

Yeah, Richard Dawkins is well known for his violence.

[The Thinker]

Well...... it would help if you guys actually reproduced to begin with.

LOL. We do, we just reproduce below the replacement rate of 2.1. But that's true of most of the Western world, regardless of religion. Even in 3rd world countries birth rates are dropping dramatically.

Most atheists don't think that making more babies is the smartest way to grow our numbers. Simply teaching people scientific facts and critical thinking from an early age can inoculate most people against religious dogma. Also, as countries grow economically, a side effect of that is secularization.

[The Thinker]

I'm with you on this one.
In the 20th century atheist societies murdered about 1 million people for every year of existence.
They make even the most backwards Muslim countries appear civilized.

But you can't blame atheism for those deaths. Atheism is not a worldview, it has no prescriptions. The problem was communism, which is not the same as atheism. Any system in which you give one person absolute power will inevitably result in massive deaths and bloodshed. It happened all through out Christian Europe.

Today the most backwards countries are in the Islamic world.

[Mountain Man]

Atheism is not a worldview...

I see you don't know the definition of "worldview".

[Meh Gerbil]

Atheism is not a worldview, it has no prescriptions.

Don't you see the irony in this statement?

[Meh Gerbil]

Today the most backwards countries are in the Islamic world.

Just for fun I believe it would be interesting if you were to define the term 'backwards'.
I think it can be illustrated rather easily that the term has next to no meaning.

Let's take environmentalism as an example.
We'll evaluate societies based solely on their impact on the environment.
Societies that impact the environment is a bad way will be considered 'backwards' while those that have little impact will be considered 'progressive'.

Using those criteria the U.S.A would be one of the most backwards societies on the planet.
A more progressive society would be Sweden or perhaps Iceland where alternative energy thrives and recycling is a way of life.
However, the most advanced society would be the uncontacted Indian tribes of the rain forests - they've virtually no impact.
Using environmentalism as a criteria an illiterate bushman from Peru could point and Sweden and proclaim "those guys are backwards".

My point is that when you say Islamic societies are backwards to what criteria are you referring?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

I see you don't know the definition of "worldview".

Atheism is not "a" worldview. It is a particular element of a great many disparate worldviews.

[The Thinker]

I cannot imagine a world ruled by people with sparse, wispy facial hair, bad glasses, socks and sandals, Ill fitting chinos, nauseating halitosis, delusions of grandeur, hair trigger tempers ... give me the Muslims any old day.

Move to Saudi Arabia.