Mormons and bible interpretation.

[BrotherAardvark]

And therein lies the rub, of course. Not only did I NOT get "the feeling" three times, but I got a very DISTINCT "gut feeling" that it was wrong.

I understand.

Curious.. have you listened to the podcast in A Mormon looks at Mormon flaws and still "stays"

I watched it a couple years ago.

It was pretty interesting. A very bold, but intensely honest, presentation. I liked it.

Many Christians who get serious about Christian history lose their faith when they find out about the horrible atrocities that were done in the name of God.

A few years back, I read a book by Paul Johnson named "The History of Christianity". I thought I would be reading how Christians have been persecuted and yet charitable through the centuries, and about how good the reformers, etc., were. But instead I learned how the church became a whore to the Roman Empire, and how millions were slaughtered for the cause. It made me sick to my stomach. Had I not had faith in the restoration, I may have lost my Christian faith. It certainly confirmed my testimony of the great apostasy.

I know you're fairly new and have a lot of ground to cover, but, if you don't mind, when you get a chance, I'd like to hear your comments.

When I watched John Dehlin's podcast, there was nothing he spoke about that I had not been exposed to. Again, like I said in another post, I am very eclectic, and have spent many years of my life digging deeper than the Sunday School manual would take one.

He lays out a lot of things that can raise questions. He also said that there were good answers to most of the questions, and I know that is true. But there are some things that can't be answered, and all we Latter-day Saints can do it say we are sorry and try to fix it.

Yes, when a Mormon goes looking, we now readily find that our critics have exposed some pretty ugly stuff. The internet has given every Mormon (and all Christians for that matter) quick access to the mistakes of our human leaders.

It is the same in all denominations. For example, most Southern Baptists don't know that the Southern Baptist church was founded so they could hold to their theological views on slavery, all in the name of God. The history of the KKK and it's association to some Christian groups is very disturbing.

Constantine was a sun worshiper and had his own son and wife put to death.

In Martin Luther's book "The Jews and Their Lies" he advocated that all Jews be murdered.

Calvin had a man killed, just because he taught something Calvin disagreed with.

The list goes on an on until your "gut" is so tied in knots that you can't take it more.

We Mormons have to live with the Mountain Meadow Massacre and the withholding of the priesthood from the blacks until 1978. I have found no good answers to these items and can only say how very very sorry I am that these horrible evils ever happened.

These things were evil. Period. Jesus would not defend such acts and neither can anyone who truly knows God defend such acts.

The conclusion I have drawn is that evil exits on this earth. Satan reigns over most of it. Every church that has imperfect members will have black marks on it's history. We should first make sure we are not contributing to the evil ourselves, and then we should do what we can to help and love all who are struggling with this world's evil (wherever it comes from).

This is why I feel it is so important that one repent and find God and get to know Him personally. Only then can one let the disturbing mistakes of others roll off one's back. Only then can one find peace from one's personal disturbing mistakes. Only then can we truly start to reflect God's love back to others.

It's no wonder Christ suffered so much. We are so blessed that He understands and loves us all, in spite of our mistakes.

[BrotherAardvark]

Why doesn't the LDS God annihilate those beings instead of putting them in the outer darkness forever where they will be tormented day and night?

Because he can't.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)
Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Since it cannot be made, it follows that it can not be destroyed.

[Cow Poke]

I understand.

I watched it a couple years ago.

It was pretty interesting. A very bold, but intensely honest, presentation. I liked it.

Many Christians who get serious about Christian history lose their faith when they find out about the horrible atrocities that were done in the name of God.

I have always put that in the context of the "global trends" we go through. How, for example, can we possibly understand or justify American soldiers killing each other on our continent, where it is actually blood relatives on opposite sides killing brothers, cousins, neighbors. And it's called a "civil" war! People can do pretty strange things, and it's obviously worse when it's "in the name of God".

A few years back, I read a book by Paul Johnson named "The History of Christianity". I thought I would be reading how Christians have been persecuted and yet charitable through the centuries, and about how good the reformers, etc., were. But instead I learned how the church became a whore to the Roman Empire, and how millions were slaughtered for the cause. It made me sick to my stomach. Had I not had faith in the restoration, I may have lost my Christian faith. It certainly confirmed my testimony of the great apostasy.

There is always evil in the world.

When I watched John Dehlin's podcast, there was nothing he spoke about that I had not been exposed to. Again, like I said in another post, I am very eclectic, and have spent many years of my life digging deeper than the Sunday School manual would take one.

I can tell.

He lays out a lot of things that can raise questions. He also said that there were good answers to most of the questions, and I know that is true. But there are some things that can't be answered, and all we Latter-day Saints can do it say we are sorry and try to fix it.

I haven't found the "we are sorry" attitude a whole lot here from LDS. I have seen a tendency to dig heels in and defend at any cost. Dehlin's handling of problems was pretty refreshing.

Yes, when a Mormon goes looking, we now readily find that our critics have exposed some pretty ugly stuff. The internet has given every Mormon (and all Christians for that matter) quick access to the mistakes of our human leaders.

I had started a thread asking - if the internet had been around in JS's day, would it have helped or hurt? Mixed answers, naturally.

It is the same in all denominations. For example, most Southern Baptists don't know that the Southern Baptist church was founded so they could hold to their theological views on slavery, all in the name of God. The history of the KKK and it's association to some Christian groups is very disturbing.

I think there was a little more to it than that, but I can't argue with history.

Constantine was a sun worshiper and had his own son and wife put to death.

In Martin Luther's book "The Jews and Their Lies" he advocated that all Jews be murdered.

Calvin had a man killed, just because he taught something Calvin disagreed with.

The list goes on an on until your "gut" is so tied in knots that you can't take it more.

We Mormons have to live with the Mountain Meadow Massacre and the withholding of the priesthood from the blacks until 1978. I have found no good answers to these items and can only say how very very sorry I am that these horrible evils ever happened.

Well, again, your viewpoint is welcomed, but quite a departure from what I've seen so far from LDS.... lots of rationalizing and justifying and excusing, but no "yup, we were wrong".

These things were evil. Period. Jesus would not defend such acts and neither can anyone who truly knows God defend such acts.

The conclusion I have drawn is that evil exits on this earth. Satan reigns over most of it. Every church that has imperfect members will have black marks on it's history. We should first make sure we are not contributing to the evil ourselves, and then we should do what we can to help and love all who are struggling with this world's evil (wherever it comes from).

Are you SURE you're a Moromon?!?!?!?!

This is why I feel it is so important that one repent and find God and get to know Him personally. Only then can one let the disturbing mistakes of others roll off one's back. Only then can one find peace from one's personal disturbing mistakes. Only then can we truly start to reflect God's love back to others.

It's no wonder Christ suffered so much. We are so blessed that He understands and loves us all, in spite of our mistakes.

I'm guessing you're older than 20.

[Sparko]

Why?



Because in LDS thought, there is a purpose to hell, and an eventual deliverance and end to hell for most people. Those who still choose to remain in outer darkness, do so purely by their preference to do so. In LDS thought, we all are given what we choose.

Also, in LDS thought, the spirit is immortal and interminable. For us, spiritual death refers to separation from God, not absolute termination or annihilation.

In Christian thought the soul is immortal also.

and what about the devil? can he leave the outer darkness when he wants to?

why would anyone WANT to remain in the outer darkness?

[Sparko]

Because he can't.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)
Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Since it cannot be made, it follows that it can not be destroyed.

then the LDS God is not all powerful. Heck why can't he just destroy their spirit bodies (which he created) and send them back to wherever the Intelligences hang out?

PS, in regard to you post to CP. I agree that there have been some pretty bad and evil attocities in both the Christian Church and the LDS Church.

The difference I see is that the Christians don't claim to be led by a living Prophet and Apostles that speak directly for God. At least not the Protestants. But the LDS church does. so how did some of these evil doctrines (like the racist ones) creep into the church? The prophets claimed that they got it from God. and God sure didn't bother to correct them for nearly a hundred years. Don't you find that disturbing?

[Cow Poke]

PS, in regard to you post to CP. I agree that there have been some pretty bad and evil attocities in both the Christian Church and the LDS Church.

The difference I see is that the Christians don't claim to be led by a living Prophet and Apostles that speak directly for God. At least not the Protestants. But the LDS church does. so how did some of these evil doctrines (like the racist ones) creep into the church? The prophets claimed that they got it from God. and God sure didn't bother to correct them for nearly a hundred years. Don't you find that disturbing?

Exactly, and i've been making that point consistently.
What i get in return is either
A) The prophets and patriarchs were dirty old men or perverts or murderers, etc....
2) The "living" prophets are "only human".

It seems that the LDS always has to throw somebody under the bus - either the OT guys, or the "living prophets", depending on what supports their argument at the moment.

The racism in the Southern Baptist Church, for example, ( "my people" ) - that was just pure stupidity and ignorance. And, yeah, hatred, bigotry, etc... Same as was going on in the "secular world" at the time. But WE (SBC) never CLAIMED to have "living prophets" who "spoke scripture".

AND, we have repented and "moved on". As I have said, one of my best friends has been my Southern Baptist African-American mission pastor!

[BrotherAardvark]

Thanks for the nice response CP.

I will respond to the following:

I had started a thread asking - if the internet had been around in JS's day, would it have helped or hurt? Mixed answers, naturally.

The printing press changed things a lot. It helped usher in the reformation.

The internet is quickening God's restoration of the truth among all God fearing people. It can be also be used effectively to spread lies, but the truth will prevail.

Are you SURE you're a Moromon?!?!?!?!

I'm guessing you're older than 20.

I'm a true blue Mormon. 55 yrs old (which is really really old for a blue aardvark)

[BrotherAardvark]

then the LDS God is not all powerful.

Now hold on a just a minute. Just becasue God can't do some things doesn't make Him NOT all powerful.

For example, can God make someone love Him if they don't want to love Him?

Intelligence is a self existing essence. There is no such thing as created intelligence, for that would be artificial intelligence which is not really intelligence at all. Like forced love is not love at all.

Heck why can't he just destroy their spirit bodies (which he created) and send them back to wherever the Intelligences hang out?

I suppose he could. Never heard of it happening, though.

PS, in regard to you post to CP. I agree that there have been some pretty bad and evil attocities in both the Christian Church and the LDS Church.

The difference I see is that the Christians don't claim to be led by a living Prophet and Apostles that speak directly for God. At least not the Protestants. But the LDS church does. so how did some of these evil doctrines (like the racist ones) creep into the church? The prophets claimed that they got it from God. and God sure didn't bother to correct them for nearly a hundred years. Don't you find that disturbing?

Well, I think it is important to realize that even prophets are human. Our prophets have all admitted their human frailties and inadequacies, just as the ancient prophets did.

The racist thing was not doctrinal. It was an evil policy. It didn't come to BY from God. I think BY brought it with him when he joined the church (just as most people bring their prejudices).

It is not a person's purity that makes them a prophet. It is that God speaks through them that makes them a prophet. God can choose any scum bag to speak through. I believe he usually chooses pretty good people, because no one will listen to the scum bags (at least that's what he learned with Noah).

[Sparko]

Now hold on a just a minute. Just becasue God can't do some things doesn't make Him NOT all powerful.

For example, can God make someone love Him if they don't want to love Him?

yes he can. He might not do it. but it is in his power to do so. God can do anything that is logically possible.

Intelligence is a self existing essence. There is no such thing as created intelligence, for that would be artificial intelligence which is not really intelligence at all. Like forced love is not love at all.

But the spirit body that houses the intelligence is not self existing, since God birthed it and sustains it, right?

I suppose he could. Never heard of it happening, though.

well if he could and he doesn't then you are in the same position we are in when you asked why God doesn't destroy the soul instead of sending it to hell. By the way, some Christians do believe in annihilationism. I don't though.

Well, I think it is important to realize that even prophets are human. Our prophets have all admitted their human frailties and inadequacies, just as the ancient prophets did.

Yes they are human and do make mistakes. But when a prophet claims revelation from God and speaks for God, he cannot make any mistakes. If even one thing he says that he claims is doctrine or prophesy is not true, then he is a false prophet and you are not to follow him. And we are talking about things that Smith said he revealed, and that other prophets claim was revealed to them. If they can't even be right about the nature of who Jehovah is, then how can you trust them on anything they say?

Deut 18:
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." 21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

The racist thing was not doctrinal. It was an evil policy. It didn't come to BY from God. I think BY brought it with him when he joined the church (just as most people bring their prejudices).

When it is an official policy that governs whether someone can even hold positions in the church or enter the Temple, then it is doctrine. Doctrines are authoritative teachings. And it was officially taught that blacks had the mark of Cain or were an inferior race.

“There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with OTHER DISADVANTAGES, while another is BORN WHITE with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there.”
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 61, Joseph Fielding Smith)

it is in your canon:


“...wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a SKIN OF BLACKNESS to come upon them.”
(Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 5, verse 21)

“And the skins of the Lamanites were DARK, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which WAS A CURSE upon them because of their transgression...” (Book of Mormon, Alma 3, verse 6)

“...for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a DARK, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us,...” (Book of Mormon, Mormon 5, verse 15)

“The attitude of the Church with reference to the Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time."
(Official First Presidency statement, August 17, 1951 [some sources date this to 1949], cf. John Lewis Lund, The Church and the Negro, p.89).

It is not a person's purity that makes them a prophet. It is that God speaks through them that makes them a prophet. God can choose any scum bag to speak through. I believe he usually chooses pretty good people, because no one will listen to the scum bags (at least that's what he learned with Noah).

that is true. but when they speak as the mouthpiece of God, they have to speak what God tells them. If they claim to be speaking for God and are not, they are false prophets.

and again, if they do get leadership from God, and if it was just human frailty that led to the racism, then why didn't God correct them? If he is in direct contact with them, wouldn't he rebuke their errors? And if not, then how can you trust any of your prophets and apostles in anything they teach?

[OtherCheek]

For example, can God make someone love Him if they don't want to love Him?

yes he can. He might not do it. but it is in his power to do so. God can do anything that is logically possible.

Has God ever done it--forced someone to love him? And why would God NOT do it if He can?

But the spirit body that houses the intelligence is not self existing, since God birthed it and sustains it, right?

But the spirit houses the intelligence, which we believe was not made, and it is the intelligence BA was referring to.

well if he could and he doesn't then you are in the same position we are in when you asked why God doesn't destroy the soul instead of sending it to hell. By the way, some Christians do believe in annihilationism. I don't though.

Could God do anything a person can conceive of, and still remain "God"?

[JAYMZ]

The "out of context" argument can be made when anyone cites less that the whole bible. Even then historical context is often needed to understand.

Please, I'm not trying to mislead in that way. I know you have the whole bible, and I would encourage you to check the context of any reference I make, just as I will check yours..

But...........you didnt tell me why my interpretation of 2 Peter 1:3-4 is not accurate, and you didnt say why that verse means we WILL become gods someday.

What about 2 Corinthians 12:12 ?

Do any LDS apostles measure up ?

[JAYMZ]

I loved my earthly father. I told him I wanted to grow up to be like him. He was very honored by it.

It is not LDS doctrine that we will be equal to God. He will always be our God (how many blessed times to we have to say this on forums like this. Please give up on this myth about Mormonism, please).

To become more like God is not just an LDS thing, it is a very prevalent Christian teaching. See here.

Also this from the Baptist Faith and Message:
C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

See.........this is the confusing thing about trying to figure out what mormons believe.

Doesnt the LDS church believe God was once a man that had to " learn how to be a God " on some other planet. Essentially receiving his God-like powers from another.

Doesnt the LDS believe that if someone is exalted to God hood, they will have their own planet, their own power of creation, etc ?

What about the Adam/God doctrine and Young saying his words were scripture ?

Where do christians get their ideas about what mormons believe ? From the " spirit filled " words of their prophets.

I dont understand.........maybe LDS members dont fully understand what their prophets were teaching. Or maybe they do, but are embarrassed by their words and try to minimize their impact ?

[wonbyone]

Has God ever done it--forced someone to love him? And why would God NOT do it if He can?

He could have. It seems Judas and Pharoah were created to do what they did so I think it's possible. Maybe a Calvinist could chime in?

But the spirit houses the intelligence, which we believe was not made, and it is the intelligence BA was referring to.

And you are wrong as I have already given you the passage in another thread that said Gog formed our spirits in our bodies, so our physical bodies are created before our spirits.

Could God do anything a person can conceive of, and still remain "God"?

No because in our sinful nature we conceive wickedness.

[BrotherAardvark]

Originally posted by BrotherAardvark
Now hold on a just a minute. Just becasue God can't do some things doesn't make Him NOT all powerful.

For example, can God make someone love Him if they don't want to love Him?

yes he can. He might not do it. but it is in his power to do so. God can do anything that is logically possible.

I think this is a critical difference in your and my beliefs. If you believe that God can force someone to love Him, then you of course could believe that He can force a prophet to be perfect, exhibit no bias, keep their world view hidden, etc. etc. Like as if prophets are zombies of God. I now see why you believe BY was not a prophet. Surely, if BY was a prophet, God would have forced his mind and actions, just like he totally controlled the mind and actions of Moses, Isaiah, Paul, and John Calvin. Calvin would especially be proud of your beliefs.

BTW, if you are married, how are your forced love ideas working out for you?. Do you really think it could work? Even for God?



Now... For the record, let me say it again out of my own free will. The Mormon church's withholding the priesthood from blacks was a terrible thing. It is a great stain on the Mormon church and will be so for a long time (IMO). We (as a church) still have a lot of repenting to do over it. Many in the church are working hard to purge any and all racism that might remain. Trying to defend BY or make excuses for this is wrong. For any and all who may have been hurt by it, I apologize will all my heart. If this is keeping anyone from joining the LDS church, or is causing a member to leave, I fully understand. It was inexcusable.

The Book of Mormon clearly outlines the Doctrine that the LDS church should have obeyed. God's will was right in front of their eyes and they ignored it and that was wrong. I pray that someday we will have put this behind us.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 26:33)
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
(underline mine)

I invite all LDS who haven't done so to join me in apologizing for the racist actions and attitudes of our past leaders. To the extent that BY acted out on his prejudices, he truly desecrated His prophetic calling. I am so sorry.

[Cow Poke]

Now... For the record, let me say it again out of my own free will. The Mormon church's withholding the priesthood from blacks was a terrible thing. It is a great stain on the Mormon church and will be so for a long time (IMO). We (as a church) still have a lot of repenting to do over it. Many in the church are working hard to purge any and all racism that might remain. Trying to defend BY or make excuses for this is wrong. For any and all who may have been hurt by it, I apologize will all my heart. If this is keeping anyone from joining the LDS church, or is causing a member to leave, I fully understand. It was inexcusable.

Absolutely commendable! Period. I applaud you.

I don't know WHY this is so hard for other LDS to deal with. (Well, actually, I think I do)

But here's the problem, BA... It's STILL LDS "scripture".... What do we do with...

"...the Lord God did cause a skin of BLACKNESS to come upon them (Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 5:21)."

"And the skins...were DARK,according to the MARK which was set upon their fathers...which WAS A CURSE upon them...(Book of Mormon, Alma 3:6)."

"and the CURSING which hath come upon their skins...(Book of Mormon, Jacob 3:5)."

for this people...shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, (Book of Mormon, Mormon 5:15)

"being of the (BLACK AFRICAN)lineage by which he could not have the right of PRIESTHOOD,(Abraham1:26-27)"

24..from (BLACK AFRICAN)Ham,sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.(Abraham1:23-24)

"..A BLACKNESS came upon all the (BLACK AFRICANS)...of Canaan..(Moses7:8)"

"...seed of Cain were BLACK...(Moses7:22)"

30 And Satan sware unto (BLACK AFRICAN) Cain that he would do according to his commands..(Moses5:28-31)

And if any of those are NOT "scripture", or have been revised, I apologize in advance and stand to be corrected.