A Mormon looks at Mormon flaws and still "stays"

[Cow Poke]

Currently, my husband and I are attending a Reformed Episcopa Church in that has begun a mission in our area - the rector is very on top of things, especially Mormonism. Our mission is part of the new Anglican Church in North America (made up of 14 separate Anglican groups which have left the Episcopal Church). I personally believe creedal Christianity (especially the Nicene Creed) can help believers to recognize a cult (I know creeds had this impact on me even before I was saved).

Sparko has advised me that I AM creedal. And I always (most times) agree with Sparko. (He carries my water (buckets) and I carry his (thimbles))

I actually need to read the Apostle's Creed and ponder it - I've read it in the past, and never found anything objectionable - just haven't, as a practice, "recited a creed".

Thanks for your input, Krusader!

ETA: (I remember, as a kid, snickering at the "catholic" part, because, as a Baptist, I obviously thought that was a goof and we were reciting the Catholic creed, not the catholic one - so, apparently, I've recited the creed SOMEWHERE in my past)

[LDSTrue]

LDS,T is missing in action! Calling LDS,T.... come in, LDS,T.....

You have a lot of splainin to do, LDS,T....

- - -

[Cow Poke]

- - -

I was worried about you! I thought maybe you got run over by a semi and ruptured your colon and had to spend a period of time sitting a spell or something.

[LDSTrue]

I was worried about you! I thought maybe you got run over by a semi and ruptured your colon and had to spend a period of time sitting a spell or something.

- - - Something like that!

Preparing all my stuff for the tax man gestapo takes days and does have a ‘rupture my colon’ effect.

[Sparko]

- - - Something like that!

Preparing all my stuff for the tax man gestapo takes days and does have a ‘rupture my colon’ effect.

did you list all of your wives as dependents?

[LDSTrue]

After reading LDS True's response it reminded me of this quote...

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

I think the same applied to those following Moses out of Egypt… didn’t it?

Consider:

Scripture Verse:

KJV Exodus 32:27 -28

[27] “And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

[28] And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.”

Why did those 3,000 men loose their lives? Had they followed the council you quoted above would they have lost their lives? Apparently there could be serious consequences when one does not follow the council and directives of the Lord’s Prophets.

Your quote renders good advice else Israel will spend 40 years wandering throughout the desert! Oh wait, they did spend 40 years wandering throughout the desert. Why was that?!
(And I realize your retort will be 'Moses was a real Prophet and Joseph Smith and the others weren’t' but you are seriously wrong! Please read D&C Section 1 for confirmation!)

[LDSTrue]

did you list all of your wives as dependents?

Sooooooo many dependents... so little time!

[Cow Poke]

I think the same applied to those following Moses out of Egypt… didn’t it?

EXACTLY - which is why they didn't PRETEND that a VOTE was necessary!

(And I realize your retort will be 'Moses was a real Prophet and Joseph Smith and the others weren’t' but you are seriously wrong! Please read D&C Section 1 for confirmation!)

OK, let's be real. Pulling verses out of context and giving them your spin doesn't do a whole lot for your case, does it? And telling a non-Mormon to see D&C ANYTHING for "confirmation" is like showing somebody a comic book as proof that Superman is real.


WAIT... Mormons pay TAXES?!?!?!

[Sparko]

superman isn't real? ....Don't tell ApologiaPhoenix!

[Cow Poke]

superman isn't real? ....Don't tell ApologiaPhoenix!

I gagged when I typed that ... shhh.. . maybe LDS,T won't notice
I started to change it to SpiderMan, but we KNOW he is real....

Maybe I shoulda gone with the Green Hornet?

[Vivian]

Thanks Viv for sharing your experiences.

Because of your experiences do you feel God has selected you to teach the world a deeper meaning of christianity ? I know this sounds cliche, but do you think God selected you to lead a new movement in christianity ?

No. Not exactly.

The one receiving and the receiving of visions and revelations is not exactly as the masses think.

It is not that God selects a few from among a humanity that is basically the same to be his special servants and then appears to them or gives them visions and revelations, and viola they are prophets or Apostles.

But shoot, I had nothing else to go on when it all began, and assumed that I had just won heaven's lottery, for I knew that I was less righteous, and more of a sinner than many of those surrounding me! There was no reason for God to 'chose' me.

What I have learned since then is that the receiving of revelations and visions is actually just part of the maturation process of the soul, and occurs as a sort of call, to call out of this world the personality whose soul might just be ready for a deeper commitment, devotion, relationship, sacrifice, with Christ. It is a call to become a disciple, which means that one can join the Father's Work for the salvation of the world. As we work with Christ to save the whole world, we are of course working on our own salvation, since we are part of the world.

[Really personal salvation is a misnomer. Jesus did not come to save individual souls, but to call disciples to join him in the Father's Work of saving the whole world. In this work, the disciples might just find their own salvation, but the call isn't about them alone. So disciples of Christ do not seek for their salvation alone but for the salvation of all - they being caught up in the collective of course.]

Certainly, because there is little understanding of the opening of the spiritual realms for some souls, many get caught by deceiving spirits, and actually begin to believe that they are something special - that they are one of the two witnesses, or Jesus himself!

We are a young world in spiritual evolution, and so the spiritual realms remain a mystery for most, causing many to get trapped (many are called but few are chosen). But there is no need for a 'new religion' or for a new movement in Christianity. Christianity is actually structured like the Temple. The masses of people calling themselves Christian gather in the outer courtyard, the public place. And of the masses, a few are called to enter into the Holy Place, and of those called into the Holy Place, a few of them are called into the Holy of Holies. Meaning there are differing gradations of Christianity, and where one finds themselves drawn to will depend on the maturation of the soul.

I presently am involved in the highest gradation that I have seen or could imagine. That does not mean that there is not a higher one - though I can't imagine how. It means that because this feels right to me, body, mind, spirit, soul, and heart, where I am presently is right where I need to be, based on the maturation of my soul.

I post here for others like me, who are being called, but do not yet have a clue. It is my prayer to catch them before the deceiving spirits enter in convincing them that they are one of the two witnesses or Christ come again, etc. And then they are lost in this life.

My heart goes out to them, understanding what happened to them and how amazingly miraculous it feels to be touched and 'visited' by God! but also how deceptive it can become. It is essential for the success of the call that the person connect with others, with their true spiritual family, to keep them grounded, guided, and protected from the deception that rules this world.


Shalom!

Viv

[LDSTrue]

EXACTLY - which is why they didn't PRETEND that a VOTE was necessary!

You probably noticed and just forgot; Moses wasn't called to establish a church.

OK, let's be real. Pulling verses out of context and giving them your spin doesn't do a whole lot for your case, does it?

I don't know what you're talking about!

And telling a non-Mormon to see D&C ANYTHING for "confirmation" is like showing somebody a comic book as proof that Superman is real.

I can't imagine the damage you have caused AP! Next you'll be telling us Samllville isn't a real city!!! Go ahead, finish the destruction and put him out of his misery!!!

WAIT... Mormons pay TAXES?!?!?!

Under President Ronald Reagan - alot! Under Obama - not so much... if anything

[Cow Poke]

You probably noticed and just forgot; Moses wasn't called to establish a church.

So he and Smith really DO have something in common!

[Sparko]

You probably noticed and just forgot; Moses wasn't called to establish a church.

no. ...Just an entire freaking nation!

[Krusader]

No. Not exactly.

The one receiving and the receiving of visions and revelations is not exactly as the masses think.

It is not that God selects a few from among a humanity that is basically the same to be his special servants and then appears to them or gives them visions and revelations, and viola they are prophets or Apostles.

But isn't this exactly what Joseph Smith did?

But shoot, I had nothing else to go on when it all began, and assumed that I had just won heaven's lottery, for I knew that I was less righteous, and more of a sinner than many of those surrounding me! There was no reason for God to 'chose' me.

What I have learned since then is that the receiving of revelations and visions is actually just part of the maturation process of the soul, and occurs as a sort of call, to call out of this world the personality whose soul might just be ready for a deeper commitment, devotion, relationship, sacrifice, with Christ. It is a call to become a disciple, which means that one can join the Father's Work for the salvation of the world. As we work with Christ to save the whole world, we are of course working on our own salvation, since we are part of the world.

Are you suggesting that you are now receiving revelations and visions? Are they in accord with the Bible? This is where Smith went wrong - his revelations began to deviate greatly from the Bible, to the point where he denied that there is one God, and taught that he would one day be a god himself.

[Really personal salvation is a misnomer. Jesus did not come to save individual souls, but to call disciples to join him in the Father's Work of saving the whole world. In this work, the disciples might just find their own salvation, but the call isn't about them alone. So disciples of Christ do not seek for their salvation alone but for the salvation of all - they being caught up in the collective of course.]

Well, right off the bat Vivian, you have contradicted the reason Christ Jesus came into the world. What does John 3:16 say? " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Vivian, "whosoever" is an individual soul. Jesus said: 35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6). Vivian, it is individuals that come to Christ for salvation; it is individuals that are given by the Father to the Son. Jesus shall lose "none" who come to Him - but they are individuals, saved by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

As the collective Church, we who have been individually saved, are called to go out and preach Christ to the lost - to find the lambs called by God the Father to Jesus the Son.

Certainly, because there is little understanding of the opening of the spiritual realms for some souls, many get caught by deceiving spirits, and actually begin to believe that they are something special - that they are one of the two witnesses, or Jesus himself!

Vivian, have you gotten caught up in some kind of New Age teaching? This almost sounds Gnostic to me.

We are a young world in spiritual evolution, and so the spiritual realms remain a mystery for most, causing many to get trapped (many are called but few are chosen). But there is no need for a 'new religion' or for a new movement in Christianity. Christianity is actually structured like the Temple. The masses of people calling themselves Christian gather in the outer courtyard, the public place. And of the masses, a few are called to enter into the Holy Place, and of those called into the Holy Place, a few of them are called into the Holy of Holies. Meaning there are differing gradations of Christianity, and where one finds themselves drawn to will depend on the maturation of the soul.

I agree with you that there never was a need for a "restoration," since the Church of Jesus Christ has existed for 2,000 plus years. The Gospel has been preached for 2,000 plus years. It has withstood the waves of heresy and false teachings that abound and challenge Christ's people at every turn - but it has survived by God's grace, and Jesus will continue to be with His people until the End. This is His promise to us.

Vivian, if you read the Book of Hebrews, you will find that ALL Christians now have access to the Holy of Holies through the Blood of Christ. Not some spiritual elite.

I presently am involved in the highest gradation that I have seen or could imagine. That does not mean that there is not a higher one - though I can't imagine how. It means that because this feels right to me, body, mind, spirit, soul, and heart, where I am presently is right where I need to be, based on the maturation of my soul.

Have you joined some group that believes in "gradations" of spiritual knowledge?

I post here for others like me, who are being called, but do not yet have a clue. It is my prayer to catch them before the deceiving spirits enter in convincing them that they are one of the two witnesses or Christ come again, etc. And then they are lost in this life.

Do you know any people that claim to be the "witnesses" of the Book of Revelation?

My heart goes out to them, understanding what happened to them and how amazingly miraculous it feels to be touched and 'visited' by God! but also how deceptive it can become. It is essential for the success of the call that the person connect with others, with their true spiritual family, to keep them grounded, guided, and protected from the deception that rules this world.

Have you received the Jesus of the Bible (not the Jesus of Mormonism - a "created" entity) as your personal Savior, trusting in Him and Him only for salvation?


Shalom!

Viv

It is the Peace of Christ we need, and we can have it if we abide in Him.