Originally posted by Sparko
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Women Speaking to Crowds of People at Public Places
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhich means it was all God's instruction regarding women to Timothy. (case example: 1 Corinthians 7:12).
By prefacing it with "I don't let a woman teach" he was giving Timothy personal advice. He did not say "The Lord says don't let women teach men" nor did he simply command Timothy not to let women teach men. He specifically made it personal. You asked for Hermaneutic principal, then you reject it.
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Originally posted by SparkoBy prefacing it with "I don't let a woman teach" he was giving Timothy personal advice. He did not say "The Lord says don't let women teach men" nor did he simply command Timothy not to let women teach men. He specifically made it personal. You asked for Hermaneutic principal, then you reject it.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostEven assuming that limited interpretation of 1 Timothy, elsewhere he flatly directs that women should keep silent and shouldn't even ask questions.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostNice story, but it doesn't fly: ειναι "being" μιας γυναικος "OF one woman" ανδρα "(the・a) man". Context shows that the secondary definitions ("wife" and "husband") are correct for this verse, and the declension for both "one" and "woman" being genitive, "of one wife" is inescapable.
...
While I don't believe the text itself is online, this brief discussion is. It is not *directly* relevant, but may be of interest to some.
Edit: I see in the Comments section that Payne does address the question of whether "one-woman-man" is an idiom.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf it were God's command he would have just said "Timothy, don't let a woman teach men."
By prefacing it with "I don't let a woman teach" he was giving Timothy personal advice. He did not say "The Lord says don't let women teach men" nor did he simply command Timothy not to let women teach men. He specifically made it personal. You asked for Hermaneutic principal, then you reject it.
What is the context of the argument? The Greek for "woman" and "man" can also be understood and be translated "wife" and "husband" in some contexts (such as 1 Timothy 2:11-14).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostWhich is impossible to take at face value and still harmonize with chapter 11 of the same letter, where it is not only permitted but clearly *expected* that women will speak in prayer and prophecy.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYou have not established that Paul was not writing in his apostolic authority.
Usually when someone is speaking representing another authority, and then makes a statement beginning with "I don't let..." he is giving a personal statement. That's common sense. If you don't like it, prove otherwise.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postyou have not established that he was. derp.
Usually when someone is speaking representing another authority, and then makes a statement beginning with "I don't let..." he is giving a personal statement. That's common sense. If you don't like it, prove otherwise.
What you cited did not prove what you contended. Need context. What I referenced 1 Timothy 2:11-14 was with apostolic authority. Adam and Eve were the first husband and wife.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe problem is the reader's understanding, not the text. Women were never forbidden ministry itself. But the role of the woman is not that of a man nor the man of that of a woman.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRaddWhich is impossible to take at face value and still harmonize with chapter 11 of the same letter, where it is not only permitted but clearly *expected* that women will speak in prayer and prophecy.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostEven if it were talking about speaking in church, the exception would prove the rule.
But Chapter 11 doesn't even say anything specifically about speaking in church.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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1 Corinthians 11:13-15Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a coveringMy answer is - no: nature teaches nothing of the sort.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by NorrinRaddThere is no such thing as an exception that proves a rule. That is a dodge people invoke to explain why their supposed "rule" failed.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI was responding specifically to the idea that women are to remain "silent" in the assembly. So yes, Obsidian clearly does not understand some texts.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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