John 3:5

[elam]

I often receive inquiries by private mail. This one I thought I should share...

A question I have of you. If you were to explain to a person on how to be born over (John 3:3)? What would you explain? I would cite 1 John 5:1, 9-12 and John 1:12-13; Isaiah 53:6; Romans 4:25. And the promise of Jeremiah 31:34 (Hebrews 8:12; 10:17).

1 John 5:1, 9-12 and John 1:12-13 & Romans 4:25 are excellent scriptures for the encouragement of the already converted who have been preconditioned to the message.

I don't perceive them as much use in bringing a non-christian to an understanding of what it means to be "born again" within the context of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus.

Isaiah 53:6...

Scriptures like this, used in an evangelical context, assume a wealth of pre-knowledge about the tenants of Christianity, so are of little use in your context.

Jeremiah 31:34 (Hebrews 8:12; 10:17)...

Go back one verse (Jer 31:33 = Heb 8:10). Now we are getting closer to the mark. The operative clause being "I will put my laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts".

Consider the promise of God delivered by Ezekiel...

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh".

Ezekiel 11:19 "I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

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The key to understanding (and explaining) John 3:5-7 is found in vs10 & 11.

"Jesus answered [Nicodemus]and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak what we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness"

At this point, a comprehensive understanding of Hebrew prophetic history would be benefitial...but not absolutely necessary...

It has all got to do with a change of heart & renewal of spirit...

John 3:6...

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

This is a code breaker verse.

Jesus is specifically saying he is not talking about physical things but that which is of greater philosophical importance.

There is a useful Buddhist (Hindu?) term that would come in handy at this point, but it escapes me at the moment.

The idea encapsulates the concepts of what is illusion (flesh) and what is reality (spirit).

[Sparko]

Exactly where in all that mess did you explain to a seeker "how to be born again?"

[elam]

Exactly where in all that mess did you explain to a seeker "how to be born again?"

Change of heart, change of mind, reception of the Spirit.

Read what is written. Read A.John's gospel that all but the illitterate & those ignorant of Jewish paradigms would understand.

A jewish explaination is that the concepts of "rebirth" was common in Jewish philosopy as when one progresses throughout life = "coming of age, marriage, becoming a parent, becoming a rabbi, becoming a king" (there is another two possibilities which I have forgooten). Nicodemus had achieved all possibilities but one = he wasn't of the royal line so that was out of bounds. Thus his confusion. He was locked by the flesh...thus...

"Art thou a [moderator at TWEB], and knowest not these things?

[Sparko]

Change of heart, change of mind, reception of the Spirit.

Read what is written. Read A.John's gospel that all but the illitterate & those ignorant of Jewish paradigms would understand.

A jewish explaination is that the concepts of "rebirth" was common in Jewish philosopy as when one progresses throughout life = "coming of age, marriage, becoming a parent, becoming a rabbi, becoming a king" (there is another two possibilities which I have forgooten). Nicodemus had achieved all possibilities but one = he wasn't of the royal line so that was out of bounds. Thus his confusion. He was locked by the flesh...thus...

"Art thou a [moderator at TWEB], and knowest not these things?

So if someone came up to you and said "How can I be born again and saved?"

What would you tell them? What you did in the OP? And after they scratched their heads and wandered off, then what?

[Obsidian]

1. Sin is any disobedience to God's law. (1 John 3:4)
2. God has wrath toward sin, even against seemingly minor transgressions. (Romans 1:18, Revelation 21:8)
3. His wrath leads not only to physical death, but also to eternal punishment in hell. (Romans 6:23, Revelation 20:14-15)
4. God loves you, and wants you to be saved. (Romans 5:8)
5. Jesus lived a righteous life, and then died to pay for your sins. (2 Corinthians 5:21, Romans 5:6)
6. Jesus rose from the dead, to establish his own perfect kingdom that you can enter by faith. (Romans 5:9, Revelation 21:4-6)
7. If you believe in Jesus, he will save you from hell, and add you to his kingdom, which is known as being "born again" or gaining "eternal life." (John 3, Romans 10)
8. To be part of God's kingdom means that your spirit is alive, but one day in the future God will raise your body as well. (Romans 8:10-11, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55)
9. To state the obvious, "eternal life" is eternal and cannot be lost. (John 4:13-14, John 10:28-30, Romans 8:38)
10. God will deal with you as a parent once you believe in Jesus, and he may discipline you, but he will never disinherit you or send you to hell. (John 1:12, Hebrews 12:6)
11. Conversely, once you believe in Jesus, God will especially reward you in heaven for any good deeds that you do for Jesus. (Matthew 6:19-20, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Hebrews 11:6).

Not every verse is strictly necessary (obviously), but I do feel like the better you explain all these issues, the better "root" will develop. If someone doesn't even disagree with you on a particular point, there is little reason to dwell on it. People will typically have the hardest time accepting items #9-10, because all of Satan's false churches have brainwashed people into thinking that "eternal life" is not actually eternal (Catholicism, aka the Whore of Babylon), or that it is eternal but that you should never be sure that God has really given it to you (Calvinism).

There are certain passages that try to simplify the gospel message, such as John 3, 1 John 5:10-12, and Acts 10.

Also, I think the reference to being born of water and the Spirit, in John 3:5, is a reference to Isaiah 35.

Isaiah 35:6
Then shall the lame man leap as an hart,
and the tongue of the dumb sing:
for in the wilderness shall waters break out,
and streams in the desert.
And the parched ground shall become a pool,
and the thirsty land springs of water:
in the habitation of dragons, where each lay,
shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

It is talking about the Messianic era, where the ungodly gain new life.

[elam]

So if someone came up to you and said "How can I be born again and saved?"

What would you tell them? What you did in the OP? And after they scratched their heads and wandered off, then what?

I would tell them that Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus occurred before Jesus' crucifixion...or for that matter the advent of Christianity...or for that matter pentecost...

To be born again is simply a matter of a change of heart & change of mind. In RCC terms being obedient to the will of God...rather than your own superficial inclinations...

[Sparko]

I would tell them that Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus occurred before Jesus' crucifixion...or for that matter the advent of Christianity...or for that matter pentecost...

To be born again is simply a matter of a change of heart & change of mind. In RCC terms being obedient to the will of God...rather than your own superficial inclinations...

totally wrong. see obsidian's post.

[Sparko]

1. Sin is any disobedience to God's law. (1 John 3:4)
2. God has wrath toward sin, even against seemingly minor transgressions. (Romans 1:18, Revelation 21:8)
3. His wrath leads not only to physical death, but also to eternal punishment in hell. (Romans 6:23, Revelation 20:14-15)
4. God loves you, and wants you to be saved. (Romans 5:8)
5. Jesus lived a righteous life, and then died to pay for your sins. (2 Corinthians 5:21, Romans 5:6)
6. Jesus rose from the dead, to establish his own perfect kingdom that you can enter by faith. (Romans 5:9, Revelation 21:4-6)
7. If you believe in Jesus, he will save you from hell, and add you to his kingdom, which is known as being "born again" or gaining "eternal life." (John 3, Romans 10)
8. To be part of God's kingdom means that your spirit is alive, but one day in the future God will raise your body as well. (Romans 8:10-11, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55)
9. To state the obvious, "eternal life" is eternal and cannot be lost. (John 4:13-14, John 10:28-30, Romans 8:38)
10. God will deal with you as a parent once you believe in Jesus, and he may discipline you, but he will never disinherit you or send you to hell. (John 1:12, Hebrews 12:6)
11. Conversely, once you believe in Jesus, God will especially reward you in heaven for any good deeds that you do for Jesus. (Matthew 6:19-20, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Hebrews 11:6).

Not every verse is strictly necessary (obviously), but I do feel like the better you explain all these issues, the better "root" will develop. If someone doesn't even disagree with you on a particular point, there is little reason to dwell on it. People will typically have the hardest time accepting items #9-10, because all of Satan's false churches have brainwashed people into thinking that "eternal life" is not actually eternal (Catholicism, aka the Whore of Babylon), or that it is eternal but that you should never be sure that God has really given it to you (Calvinism).

There are certain passages that try to simplify the gospel message, such as John 3, 1 John 5:10-12, and Acts 10.

Also, I think the reference to being born of water and the Spirit, in John 3:5, is a reference to Isaiah 35.

Isaiah 35:6
Then shall the lame man leap as an hart,
and the tongue of the dumb sing:
for in the wilderness shall waters break out,
and streams in the desert.
And the parched ground shall become a pool,
and the thirsty land springs of water:
in the habitation of dragons, where each lay,
shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

It is talking about the Messianic era, where the ungodly gain new life.

born again also is referred to in 2 cor 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

and Ezek 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

It is the change that comes over you when you are saved. God gives you a new spirit. You are a new creation.


but as far as HOW to be reborn, you nailed it. elam seems to be stuck on what it is, not how to become born again, which was the original question. and throwing esoteric verses at a seeker without any explanation or instruction on how to be saved is wasted effort.

[elam]

totally wrong. see obsidian's post.

Totally correct according to the majority Church = RCC, EOC,ROC, OOC etc

Your commercialism (American protestant misconceptions) is what has led to the secularisation of society. Time for you to read the writings of the apostles!

In Christian circles we call it the Bible!!!

[elam]

but as far as HOW to be reborn, you nailed it. elam seems to be stuck on what it is, not how to become born again, which was the original question. and throwing esoteric verses at a seeker without any explanation or instruction on how to be saved is wasted effort.

If Sparko could spare one moment from his deviant inclinations, he might have accused me of being a follower of Origen Adamantius, but he would be wrong on that score as well (Sparko, in his pirate costume, does seem intent on demonstrating stupidity or a total disrespect of Christianity).

[Sparko]

If Sparko could spare one moment from his deviant inclinations, he might have accused me of being a follower of Origen Adamantius, but he would be wrong on that score as well (Sparko, in his pirate costume, does seem intent on demonstrating stupidity or a total disrespect of Christianity).

i have no idea what the heck you are even going on about, other than ad hominem.

[Bisto]

Elam,

Hi.

Whatever points you are trying to say, you lose a lot of face gratuitously jabbing at Sparko, Evangelicalism, etc. And in general, assuming the worst possible reason for what caused the other party to say what they have said. This latter phenomenon is incredibly common and happens in lots of contexts, so I'm pretty sure you're familiar with it and can avoid it if you want to. Needless to say, this discussion would be a lot more useful for any would-be readers if all parties involved would avoid such pointless practices.

I write this as an interested reader in what you both (and Obsidian!) have to say. Cheers,

Bisto.

[Obsidian]

born again also is referred to in 2 cor 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

and Ezek 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

It is the change that comes over you when you are saved. God gives you a new spirit. You are a new creation.

The main reason I think he was referring to Isaiah is because of the reference to being born of water, although there is also a passage in Ezekiel that talks about a river of water.

[elam]

i have no idea what the heck you are even going on about, other than ad hominem.

Apparently you have a "fast food" (MacDonald's) approach to Christianity & therefore a preference for the force fed rhetoric of American commercialism.

In the RCC, EOC, ROC, OOC (the majority church) we believe in consistency...

First comes the change in heart & the change in mind (what it is to be reborn), then comes the acceptance of Christ & his message...

The Greeks have several terms to explain the matter. I particularly like the concept of "the Perichoresis".

[Sparko]

The main reason I think he was referring to Isaiah is because of the reference to being born of water, although there is also a passage in Ezekiel that talks about a river of water.

being born of water refers to natural birth. you know, a mother's womb is full of water. Jesus is contrasting being born of woman (water) to being born again of the Holy Spirit.