John 3:5

[NorrinRadd]

The commentary there matches what I know, and goes beyond what I knew. Overall it seems to hold water, so I'll make a point of investigating the book and see if it has any more gems.

It has many, but it is necessarily brief (since it deals to some degree with every verse in the NT) and does not cite sources. Keener has specific commentaries on Matthew and John that I'm sure give more detail. I know his pneumatology book, The Spirit in the Gospels and Acts, Keener gives much more detail on these passages (and others, of course) in Matthew, Mark, and John, as well as source citations.

[tabibito]

It has many, but it is necessarily brief (since it deals to some degree with every verse in the NT) and does not cite sources. Keener has specific commentaries on Matthew and John that I'm sure give more detail. I know his pneumatology book, The Spirit in the Gospels and Acts, Keener gives much more detail on these passages (and others, of course) in Matthew, Mark, and John, as well as source citations.

Ah - thanks for that. The university lecturer would assuredly frown upon citeless references.

[NorrinRadd]

Baptism certainly makes more sense than the water representing the Spirit. Otherwise Jesus is just repeating himself by saying born of water (Spirit) and the Spirit.

Keener believes water to be the Spirit in John 3 (partly because that metaphor is used several places in John). His translation is, "water, that is, the Spirit."

[NorrinRadd]

Ah - thanks for that. The university lecturer would assuredly frown upon citeless references.

The IVP BBCs are relatively inexpensive, and directed toward "regular" folks. There is also, as of a few months ago, a Bible that contains a further condensed version of the Background Commentary notes on each Testament.

[Littlejoe]

Keener believes water to be the Spirit in John 3 (partly because that metaphor is used several places in John). His translation is, "water, that is, the Spirit."

Well, looking back at your quote, Keener says "Could be", so saying he believes water to be Spirit is reading more into his words that he actually says IMO.

Comments from Craig Keener in the IVP Bible Background Commentary:

couldcould mean

Jesus' disciples did indeed baptize his followers/new disciples as evidenced in the very next chapter.

Scripture Verse: John 4:2

4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

© Copyright Original Source

ETA: I'm not married to one view or the other but Keener (at least in what you quoted) certainly doesn't seem to be making a STRONG case here...using qualifying words of can and should and could...I think it's an interesting conversation though.

[Obsidian]

Baptism certainly makes more sense than the water representing the Spirit. Otherwise Jesus is just repeating himself by saying born of water (Spirit) and the Spirit.

He was indeed repeating himself. That's why he only mentions water one time, and afterward only talks about the Spirit. Also, I think the word "spirit" may be a reference to the "wind" described in Ezekiel 37. Hence, he may be using two different metaphors to refer to the Holy Spirit.

[NorrinRadd]

Well, looking back at your quote, Keener says "Could be", so saying he believes water to be Spirit is reading more into his words that he actually says IMO.

No, that's what he believes. Since the BBC is for general audiences, he is in it relatively restrained in terms of advocating for a particular POV. He makes the case more strongly in some of his more egghead books, such as his two-volume The Gospel of John: A Commentary. It is crammed with details and, as an academic work, is often beyond my brain's reach. (Besides that, the print is so fine that I must literally wear two pair of reading glasses when trying to read it.)

FWIW, in that tome he also cites Gary Burge's Johannine pneumatology, The Anointed Community, and from what I can glean from that equally highbrow and teeny-fonted book, Burge holds the same view vis-a-vis Spirit and water in John 3.

Jesus' disciples did indeed baptize his followers/new disciples as evidenced in the very next chapter.

Scripture Verse: John 4:2

4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

© Copyright Original Source

Right. He's not denying either the fact or legitimacy of Xian (literal) water baptism. He's saying that the baptism that matters as far as actually placing one in the family of God is that of the Spirit.

I've just started skimming through his stuff to see what he has to say about Xian baptism specifically. So far I haven't found much.