John 3:5

[tabibito]

being born of water refers to natural birth. you know, a mother's womb is full of water. Jesus is contrasting being born of woman (water) to being born again of the Holy Spirit.

If that be so, it would seem self evident that a human who had not been born of water would not be able to be born of the spirit, nor be able to enter heaven ... he wouldn't exist.

[Sparko]

If that be so, it would seem self evident that a human who had not been born of water would not be able to be born of the spirit, nor be able to enter heaven ... he wouldn't exist.

yeah if you never existed you cant be saved.

Jesus' point is that you cant be enter heaven unless you have been born of the spirit. "3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again"

then he goes on to explain what he means by born again, by first referencing regular birth and then explaining he is not talking of that birth but birth of a new spirit, the holy spirit

[elam]

being born of water refers to natural birth. you know, a mother's womb is full of water. Jesus is contrasting being born of woman (water) to being born again of the Holy Spirit.

Only from the concepts of a complete moron! And someone absolutely obscured from the actual teachings of Jesus Christ!!!

[Sparko]

Only from the concepts of a complete moron! And someone absolutely obscured from the actual teachings of Jesus Christ!!!

what do you disagree with? be specific.

[Obsidian]

I've heard the natural birth interpretation of "water" and used to believe it, but considering how frequently the Holy Spirit is compared to water (in both OT and NT), I think my view is better. Also, even though there is water in the womb, I don't see why Jesus would use that as an expression if he just meant natural birth. It seems like he would say "born of flesh" or something (the very phrase that he uses in the next verse).

[KingsGambit]

Also, even though there is water in the womb, I don't see why Jesus would use that as an expression if he just meant natural birth.

No doubt it was a common expression back then.

[tabibito]

No doubt it was a common expression back then.

The use of "born of water" as referring to the water of the womb has no known precedent. It is not found in Hebrew, not in Aramaic, not in Koine Greek

[KingsGambit]

The use of "born of water" as referring to the water of the womb has no known precedent. It is not found in Hebrew, not in Aramaic, not in Koine Greek

Interesting. Thanks for the clarification, then.

[rogue06]

On the face of it, it seems to be a reference to baptism.

[Obsidian]

I think all of Jesus's terminology in that chapter is derived from the Old Testament. Obviously there is the bronze serpent story from Numbers 21. When he refers to the "son of man who is in heaven," he is referring to Daniel 7 where a son of man appears in heaven. The wrath of God is referenced in Jeremiah 25, and other places. When he refers to the kingdom of God, he is talking about Isaiah 33 and/or Daniel 2. When he mentions being born of water, I think he is referring to Isaiah 35, where it is obvious that the water is not literal. He gets annoyed with Nicodemus for not knowing what he is talking about because Nicodemus is an important teacher and yet he doesn't even know these Bible references. The water is not talking about baptism because baptism is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Also, baptism doesn't really cause you to be born, anyway. It symbolically causes you to die.

[Obsidian]

Also, this verse wouldn't make much sense if he were referring to baptism, because baptism is a visible event whereas birth by the Spirit is supposed to be invisible.

John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[Bisto]

The water is not talking about baptism because baptism is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Also, baptism doesn't really cause you to be born, anyway. It symbolically causes you to die.

I am not sure it's relevant to the passage, but it was my understanding that there was some form of Baptism in 2nd Temple Judaism...? I don't remember the details though.

[NorrinRadd]

Comments from Craig Keener in the IVP Bible Background Commentary:

Matt.

3:5–6. Pagans wanting to convert to Judaism would repent and be baptized, but John here treats Jewish people on the same terms as pagans (see further comment on Mk 1:4–5.)

3:11. ...The prophets had predicted the outpouring of God’s Spirit 7 on the righteous at the time when God established his kingdom for Israel (Is 44:3; Ezek 39:29; Joel 2:28). They also decreed fire upon the wicked (Is 26:11; 65:15; 66:24; Jer 4:4; 15:14; etc.). In Matthew 3:11, the wicked are baptized, or immersed, in fire (3:10, 12), the righteous in the Holy 8 Spirit.

3:12. Because the same Greek word can mean both “spirit” and “wind,” the picture of wind and fire carries over from 3:11. Winnowing was familiar to all Palestinian Jews, especially to the farmers: they would throw harvested wheat into the air, and the wind would separate the heavier grain from the lighter chaff. The chaff was useless for consumption and was normally burned. Some other writers also described the day of judgment as a harvest (4 Ezra 4:30–32; cf. Jer 51:33; Joel 3:12–14) or the wicked as chaff (Is 17:13; Jer 13:24; 15:7; etc.). That the fire is “unquenchable” points beyond the momentary burning of chaff to something far more horrible (Is 66:24), in spite of the fact that Jewish tradition itself was far from unanimous concerning the duration of hell


Mark

1:4–5. Like many other ancient peoples, Jewish people practiced ceremonial washings. Their only once-for-all ceremonial washing, however, was the immersion that non-Jews had to go through when they converted to Judaism. Non-Jews who were converting to Judaism would immerse themselves in water, probably under the supervision of a religious expert. John’s baptizing activity fits this model.


John

3:3–4. Jesus speaks literally of being born “from above,” which means “from God” (“above” was a Jewish circumlocution, or roundabout expression, for God). One could also construe the phrase as meaning “reborn,” which Nicodemus takes literally. (Ancient writers, including those of the Old Testament— Jer 1:11–12; Mic 1:10–15 —often used plays on words, and John includes quite a few other puns; they also sometimes used other characters as less intelligent foils for a narrative’s main spokesperson.) Because Jewish teachers spoke of Gentile converts to Judaism as starting life anew like “newborn children” (just as adopted sons under Roman law relinquished all legal status in their former family when they became part of a new one), Nicodemus should have understood that Jesus meant conversion; but it never occurs to him that someone Jewish would need to convert to the true faith of Israel.

3:5. Converts to Judaism were said to become “as newborn children” when they were baptized to remove Gentile impurity. “Born of water” thus clarifies for Nicodemus that “born from above” means conversion, not a second physical birth.
The Greek wording of 3:5 can mean either “water and the Spirit ” or “water, that is, the Spirit.” Ezekiel 36:24–27 used water symbolically for the cleansing of the Spirit (cf. especially the Dead Sea Scrolls), so here Jesus could mean “converted by the Spirit” (cf. 7:37–39)—a spiritual proselyte baptism. Whereas Jewish teachers generally spoke of converts to Judaism as “newborn” only in the sense that they were legally severed from old relationships, an actual rebirth by the Spirit would produce a new heart (Ezek 36:26).

3:6–7. The “spirit” that is born from God’s Spirit may reflect the “new spirit” of Ezekiel 36:26.

[tabibito]

Comments from Craig Keener in the IVP Bible Background Commentary:

The commentary there matches what I know, and goes beyond what I knew. Overall it seems to hold water, so I'll make a point of investigating the book and see if it has any more gems.

[Littlejoe]

Baptism certainly makes more sense than the water representing the Spirit. Otherwise Jesus is just repeating himself by saying born of water (Spirit) and the Spirit.

And Keener points out what I remember to be true...i.e. that Gentile converts to Judaism in the 2nd temple Judaism underwent Mikvah (baptism/ritual bathing) as part of the conversion process.