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Originally posted by Sparko
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If that be so, it would seem self evident that a human who had not been born of water would not be able to be born of the spirit, nor be able to enter heaven ... he wouldn't exist.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Only from the concepts of a complete moron! And someone absolutely obscured from the actual teachings of Jesus Christ!!!Originally posted by Sparko View PostComment
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I've heard the natural birth interpretation of "water" and used to believe it, but considering how frequently the Holy Spirit is compared to water (in both OT and NT), I think my view is better. Also, even though there is water in the womb, I don't see why Jesus would use that as an expression if he just meant natural birth. It seems like he would say "born of flesh" or something (the very phrase that he uses in the next verse).Comment
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No doubt it was a common expression back then.Originally posted by Obsidian View Post"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard RavenhillComment
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The use of "born of water" as referring to the water of the womb has no known precedent. It is not found in Hebrew, not in Aramaic, not in Koine GreekOriginally posted by KingsGambit View Post1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛Comment
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Interesting. Thanks for the clarification, then.Originally posted by tabibito View Post"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard RavenhillComment
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On the face of it, it seems to be a reference to baptism.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --TassmanComment
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I think all of Jesus's terminology in that chapter is derived from the Old Testament. Obviously there is the bronze serpent story from Numbers 21. When he refers to the "son of man who is in heaven," he is referring to Daniel 7 where a son of man appears in heaven. The wrath of God is referenced in Jeremiah 25, and other places. When he refers to the kingdom of God, he is talking about Isaiah 33 and/or Daniel 2. When he mentions being born of water, I think he is referring to Isaiah 35, where it is obvious that the water is not literal. He gets annoyed with Nicodemus for not knowing what he is talking about because Nicodemus is an important teacher and yet he doesn't even know these Bible references. The water is not talking about baptism because baptism is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Also, baptism doesn't really cause you to be born, anyway. It symbolically causes you to die.Comment
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Also, this verse wouldn't make much sense if he were referring to baptism, because baptism is a visible event whereas birth by the Spirit is supposed to be invisible.
John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.Comment
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I am not sure it's relevant to the passage, but it was my understanding that there was some form of Baptism in 2nd Temple Judaism...? I don't remember the details though.Originally posted by Obsidian View PostWe are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'- 2 Corinthians 5:20.Comment
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Comments from Craig Keener in the IVP Bible Background Commentary:
Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!Comment
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The commentary there matches what I know, and goes beyond what I knew. Overall it seems to hold water, so I'll make a point of investigating the book and see if it has any more gems.Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛Comment
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Baptism certainly makes more sense than the water representing the Spirit. Otherwise Jesus is just repeating himself by saying born of water (Spirit) and the Spirit.
And Keener points out what I remember to be true...i.e. that Gentile converts to Judaism in the 2nd temple Judaism underwent Mikvah (baptism/ritual bathing) as part of the conversion process."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett DirksenComment
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