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John 3:5

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    The commentary there matches what I know, and goes beyond what I knew. Overall it seems to hold water, so I'll make a point of investigating the book and see if it has any more gems.
    It has many, but it is necessarily brief (since it deals to some degree with every verse in the NT) and does not cite sources. Keener has specific commentaries on Matthew and John that I'm sure give more detail. I know his pneumatology book, The Spirit in the Gospels and Acts, Keener gives much more detail on these passages (and others, of course) in Matthew, Mark, and John, as well as source citations.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      It has many, but it is necessarily brief (since it deals to some degree with every verse in the NT) and does not cite sources. Keener has specific commentaries on Matthew and John that I'm sure give more detail. I know his pneumatology book, The Spirit in the Gospels and Acts, Keener gives much more detail on these passages (and others, of course) in Matthew, Mark, and John, as well as source citations.
      Ah - thanks for that. The university lecturer would assuredly frown upon citeless references.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
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      • #33
        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
        Baptism certainly makes more sense than the water representing the Spirit. Otherwise Jesus is just repeating himself by saying born of water (Spirit) and the Spirit.
        Keener believes water to be the Spirit in John 3 (partly because that metaphor is used several places in John). His translation is, "water, that is, the Spirit."
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Federalist.

        Nationalist Christian.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

        Justice for Matthew Perna!

        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Ah - thanks for that. The university lecturer would assuredly frown upon citeless references.
          The IVP BBCs are relatively inexpensive, and directed toward "regular" folks. There is also, as of a few months ago, a Bible that contains a further condensed version of the Background Commentary notes on each Testament.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            Keener believes water to be the Spirit in John 3 (partly because that metaphor is used several places in John). His translation is, "water, that is, the Spirit."
            Well, looking back at your quote, Keener says "Could be", so saying he believes water to be Spirit is reading more into his words that he actually says IMO.
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            Comments from Craig Keener in the IVP Bible Background Commentary:
            Matt.

            John

            3:3–4. Jesus speaks literally of being born “from above,” which means “from God” (“above” was a Jewish circumlocution, or roundabout expression, for God). One could also construe the phrase as meaning “reborn,” which Nicodemus takes literally. (Ancient writers, including those of the Old Testament— Jer 1:11–12; Mic 1:10–15 —often used plays on words, and John includes quite a few other puns; they also sometimes used other characters as less intelligent foils for a narrative’s main spokesperson.) Because Jewish teachers spoke of Gentile converts to Judaism as starting life anew like “newborn children” (just as adopted sons under Roman law relinquished all legal status in their former family when they became part of a new one), Nicodemus should have understood that Jesus meant conversion; but it never occurs to him that someone Jewish would need to convert to the true faith of Israel.

            3:5. Converts to Judaism were said to become “as newborn children” when they were baptized to remove Gentile impurity. “Born of water” thus clarifies for Nicodemus that “born from above” means conversion, not a second physical birth.
            The Greek wording of 3:5 can mean either “water and the Spirit ” or “water, that is, the Spirit.” Ezekiel 36:24–27 used water symbolically for the cleansing of the Spirit (cf. especially the Dead Sea Scrolls), so here Jesus could mean “converted by the Spirit” (cf. 7:37–39)—a spiritual proselyte baptism. Whereas Jewish teachers generally spoke of converts to Judaism as “newborn” only in the sense that they were legally severed from old relationships, an actual rebirth by the Spirit would produce a new heart (Ezek 36:26).

            3:6–7. The “spirit” that is born from God’s Spirit may reflect the “new spirit” of Ezekiel 36:26.
            Jesus' disciples did indeed baptize his followers/new disciples as evidenced in the very next chapter.
            Scripture Verse: John 4:2

            4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

            © Copyright Original Source



            ETA: I'm not married to one view or the other but Keener (at least in what you quoted) certainly doesn't seem to be making a STRONG case here...using qualifying words of can and should and could...I think it's an interesting conversation though.
            Last edited by Littlejoe; 03-06-2017, 07:45 AM.
            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

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            • #36
              Originally posted by LittleJoe
              Baptism certainly makes more sense than the water representing the Spirit. Otherwise Jesus is just repeating himself by saying born of water (Spirit) and the Spirit.
              He was indeed repeating himself. That's why he only mentions water one time, and afterward only talks about the Spirit. Also, I think the word "spirit" may be a reference to the "wind" described in Ezekiel 37. Hence, he may be using two different metaphors to refer to the Holy Spirit.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                Well, looking back at your quote, Keener says "Could be", so saying he believes water to be Spirit is reading more into his words that he actually says IMO.
                No, that's what he believes. Since the BBC is for general audiences, he is in it relatively restrained in terms of advocating for a particular POV. He makes the case more strongly in some of his more egghead books, such as his two-volume The Gospel of John: A Commentary. It is crammed with details and, as an academic work, is often beyond my brain's reach. (Besides that, the print is so fine that I must literally wear two pair of reading glasses when trying to read it.)

                FWIW, in that tome he also cites Gary Burge's Johannine pneumatology, The Anointed Community, and from what I can glean from that equally highbrow and teeny-fonted book, Burge holds the same view vis-a-vis Spirit and water in John 3.

                Jesus' disciples did indeed baptize his followers/new disciples as evidenced in the very next chapter.
                Scripture Verse: John 4:2

                4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

                © Copyright Original Source

                Right. He's not denying either the fact or legitimacy of Xian (literal) water baptism. He's saying that the baptism that matters as far as actually placing one in the family of God is that of the Spirit.

                I've just started skimming through his stuff to see what he has to say about Xian baptism specifically. So far I haven't found much.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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