Global Warming w/o Tiggy

[Littlejoe]

Higher overall, of course! -- Frank

wouldn't that only be true in a closed system?

[FLovell]

wouldn't that only be true in a closed system?

Good point and catch, Littlejoe! Actually, what I said would apply rigorously only in an isolated system which cannot exchange either matter or energy (heat or work) with its surroundings (a closed system usually refers to a system which cannot exchange matter with its surroundings but can exchange energy (heat or work) with its surroundings -- see the first two sentences in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_system).

-- Frank

[Augustine2004]

Isolated systems are very rare if not truly impossible. Neutrinos can penetrate just about anything. However the interior of a refrigerator is sorta isolated--until you open the door to get the frozen pizza pie.

[Augustine2004]

Are these statements factual?

1. Polar bears and penguins are doing fine.

2. Sea levels are dropping.

3. Arctic ice is normal (size or extent).

4. Glaciers are normal overall (size or extent).

5. People say that we may be entering a period of global cyclic cooling.

6. The sun drives the climate much more than anthropogenic CO2.

7. Feedback effects do not exist or are far less than warmists had suggested.

[FLovell]

Isolated systems are very rare if not truly impossible. Neutrinos can penetrate just about anything. However the interior of a refrigerator is sorta isolated--until you open the door to get the frozen pizza pie.

Quite right, Aug! The whole universe itself is the only truly isolated system we presently know of (and here lately some cosmologist are not all that sure about it <grin>)...

-- Frank

[FLovell]

Are these statements factual?

1. Polar bears and penguins are doing fine.

2. Sea levels are dropping.

3. Arctic ice is normal (size or extent).

4. Glaciers are normal overall (size or extent).

5. People say that we may be entering a period of global cyclic cooling.

6. The sun drives the climate much more than anthropogenic CO2.

7. Feedback effects do not exist or are far less than warmists had suggested.

I am happy to answer promptly, Aug:

I dunno, and therefore cannot say for sure at this time.

What I am presently confident of is that no matter what anyone else says, there are presently NO answers that represent genuine "settled science" on the matter of global climate dynamics and history-in-the-making.

-- Frank (a Global Climate Change INEVITABLIST, 'cause history tells me so!)

[Littlejoe]

Are these statements factual?

1. Polar bears and penguins are doing fine.

Yes they are.

2. Sea levels are dropping.

No, they are rising from the lowest point they have been for 20,000 years... Check out the graph here.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/envi.../sealevel.html

3. Arctic ice is normal (size or extent).

There is no such thing as "Normal"

4. Glaciers are normal overall (size or extent).

There is no such thing as "Normal" Northern hemisphere glaciers are overall shrinking, southern hemi - overall growing

5. People say that we may be entering a period of global cyclic cooling.

I posted a link in an article a few pages back in this thread that said that talked about how our current rising CO2 levels were warding off a cooling period...you can find it here

6. The sun drives the climate much more than anthropogenic CO2.

How could this be in doubt? The Sun is our life...without it we all die...and fluctuations in it affect the Earth. Without a Sun, Anthropogenic CO2 has zero effect on the temp of the earth...

7. Feedback effects do not exist or are far less than warmists had suggested.

Well, that's still unknown, the environment is more complex than the Climatologists want to let on...IMO, but I think it's silly to think there are no feedback effects, I think they could be overrated...or they may be saving our bacon right now as a serious cooling like the Little Ice Age that we had in the middle ages would cause catastrophic world wide famine.

LJ

[Augustine2004]

Psst! Wanna a reputable, independently audited group where you can buy carbon offsets?

myclimate.org
climatecare.org

Those invest in renewable-energy projects. (source: National Geographic Traveler, June/July 2012).

[Littlejoe]

Hmmm....not really...

[Augustine2004]

Hmmm....not really...

Hey, no problem, but could you explain why not?

[Littlejoe]

Why? It's just another b.s. way for someone to profit off of Global Warming...

[phank]

I'll agree with all of LittleJoe's answers to these questions, which are excellent answers. However, I have an issue with one of the questions:

6. The sun drives the climate much more than anthropogenic CO2.

Joe is right, of course, that the sun drives the climate almost single-handedly. But the issue here is the DELTA, the change in climate, not what drives the climate. If the sun's output were to change significantly, we'd all be toast or frozen, no doubt about it. But the relevant questions are: is the global climate changing significantly (that is, affecting our lives), and if so, what's causing the change. The sun's output has been pretty constant.

[Augustine2004]

The "solar constant" has not varied much, true, but the solar wind varies much in intensity and presumably composition.

[Littlejoe]

Solar constant not varying much could be a bit deceiving could it not? I mean, the difference between summer temperatures and winter temperatures is less than a 100 w/m2...7% change in total solar irradiance...not to mention the fact that solar data is pretty poor before satellites, so, accurate data is fairly new...hard to find just how constant is truly is....but the estimates of solar variations contribution to climate change vary between 16% and 80% depending on who's paper you want to believe...

LJ

[phank]

If increased solar output is responsible for 80% of climate change, we are in serious trouble, because (1) There's nothing we can do about it no matter how much we might like to; (2) It's not the sort of self-correcting problem that human activities are; and (3) It's not limited in either intensity or duration.

So if the sun is getting hotter, and this is a long-term trend, we are toast whether we like it or not. It's not like we can all move to Ganymede.