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Thread: Do the laws of the universe exist under materialism?

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    tWebber Quantum Weirdness's Avatar
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    Do the laws of the universe exist under materialism?

    And if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

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    tWebber
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    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures --1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (borrowed with gratitude from 37818's sig)

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    And if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
    First, a basic comprehension problem of science and the English language is called for here. The Laws of Nature do not exist as material substance. The ultimate Laws of Nature govern the material paradigm, and the sciences develop theories based on scientific philosophy for falsification through Methodological Naturalism for our descriptive Laws of Nature. The nature of science is descriptive, and not definitive.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-04-2017 at 03:31 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    And if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
    Laws are not existing things in themselves that govern how other existing things act, existing things are governed, or act, according to their own determined nature, and the ways in which they act are what we call laws. In other words what we define as natural laws are not at all the same thing as commands from an authority.

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    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    And if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
    Physical laws are descriptions of regularities that we observe in nature. But they are not arbitrary descriptions. If science had to start from scratch all over again, it would eventually discover the same ‘laws’.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  6. Amen Boxing Pythagoras amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Quantum Weirdness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Laws are not existing things in themselves that govern how other existing things act, existing things are governed, or act, according to their own determined nature, and the ways in which they act are what we call laws. In other words what we define as natural laws are not at all the same thing as commands from an authority.
    So the laws are observable physical properties?
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    So the laws are observable physical properties?
    What we call laws are descriptive of how nature works. They are not like authoritative commands that can either be obeyed or not obeyed.

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    tWebber Quantum Weirdness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    What we call laws are descriptive of how nature works. They are not like authoritative commands that can either be obeyed or not obeyed.
    That's not answering the question. Are the laws observable physical properties or not?
    If they are just descriptive, then they don't exist independent of mind.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    That's not answering the question. Are the laws observable physical properties or not?
    If they are just descriptive, then they don't exist independent of mind.
    Physical laws are not existing things in their own right, if they were, where would you say that they exist, what would you say that they are made of, and how would they interact with matter? The laws are simply the way in which matter, in accord with its own determined nature, acts. The fact that matter acts according to its nature is an existing fact independent of the mind, but there are no self existing laws that govern nature. It is what it is, and thats alls that it is.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    So the laws are observable physical properties?
    No.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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