Announcement

Collapse

Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Do the laws of the universe exist under materialism?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Do the laws of the universe exist under materialism?

    And if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

  • #2
    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures --1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (borrowed with gratitude from 37818's sig)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
      And if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
      First, a basic comprehension problem of science and the English language is called for here. The Laws of Nature do not exist as material substance. The ultimate Laws of Nature govern the material paradigm, and the sciences develop theories based on scientific philosophy for falsification through Methodological Naturalism for our descriptive Laws of Nature. The nature of science is descriptive, and not definitive.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-03-2017, 09:31 PM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
        And if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
        Laws are not existing things in themselves that govern how other existing things act, existing things are governed, or act, according to their own determined nature, and the ways in which they act are what we call laws. In other words what we define as natural laws are not at all the same thing as commands from an authority.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
          And if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
          Physical laws are descriptions of regularities that we observe in nature. But they are not arbitrary descriptions. If science had to start from scratch all over again, it would eventually discover the same ‘laws’.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Laws are not existing things in themselves that govern how other existing things act, existing things are governed, or act, according to their own determined nature, and the ways in which they act are what we call laws. In other words what we define as natural laws are not at all the same thing as commands from an authority.
            So the laws are observable physical properties?
            -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
            Sir James Jeans

            -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
            Sir Isaac Newton

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
              So the laws are observable physical properties?
              What we call laws are descriptive of how nature works. They are not like authoritative commands that can either be obeyed or not obeyed.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                What we call laws are descriptive of how nature works. They are not like authoritative commands that can either be obeyed or not obeyed.
                That's not answering the question. Are the laws observable physical properties or not?
                If they are just descriptive, then they don't exist independent of mind.
                -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                Sir James Jeans

                -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                Sir Isaac Newton

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                  That's not answering the question. Are the laws observable physical properties or not?
                  If they are just descriptive, then they don't exist independent of mind.
                  Physical laws are not existing things in their own right, if they were, where would you say that they exist, what would you say that they are made of, and how would they interact with matter? The laws are simply the way in which matter, in accord with its own determined nature, acts. The fact that matter acts according to its nature is an existing fact independent of the mind, but there are no self existing laws that govern nature. It is what it is, and thats alls that it is.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                    So the laws are observable physical properties?
                    No.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                      That's not answering the question. Are the laws observable physical properties or not?
                      If they are just descriptive, then they don't exist independent of mind.
                      The Natural Laws determined by science are descriptive, and dependent on our minds. The ultimate Natural Laws that determine the nature of our physical existence are independent of human minds.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                        That's not answering the question. Are the laws observable physical properties or not? If they are just descriptive, then they don't exist independent of mind.
                        You have to make a distinction here. The physical laws do independently exist, just like mathematics exists in some sort of Platonic sense. The mathematical description of these laws doesn't exist independent of mind, because they're based on inferences from physical events. I do agree that there's some difficulty understanding them on strict materialism, but the idea of a "law of nature" in itself has somewhat Christian origins...

                        The laws themselves are not observable physical properties; they're attempts to explain regularities, just like any scientific theory is. You can also look at it like this: the laws describe what usually happens; they don't force anything to happen in and of themselves.
                        Last edited by psstein; 03-04-2017, 10:50 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Physical laws are not existing things in their own right, if they were, where would you say that they exist, what would you say that they are made of, and how would they interact with matter? The laws are simply the way in which matter, in accord with its own determined nature, acts. The fact that matter acts according to its nature is an existing fact independent of the mind, but there are no self existing laws that govern nature. It is what it is, and thats alls that it is.
                          So let me rephrase the question. Is its 'nature' a physical observable property? Or is it matter? Or is it something else? Please elaborate.
                          -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                          Sir James Jeans

                          -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                          Sir Isaac Newton

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                            So let me rephrase the question. Is its 'nature' a physical observable property? Or is it matter? Or is it something else? Please elaborate.
                            'Nature' as used here is in reference to a too broad of a concept for the question to have a coherent answer.

                            Source: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS731US731&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=NAture+definition&*


                            na·ture noun 1. the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Yes, nature has observable physical properties, but nature is also governed by Natural Laws, which are not observable physical properties like the things of nature, such as 'matter.'
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This might help:
                              http://people.virginia.edu/~ecd3m/11...ysical_Law.pdf
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
                              160 responses
                              505 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post JimL
                              by JimL
                               
                              Started by seer, 02-15-2024, 11:24 AM
                              88 responses
                              354 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Started by Diogenes, 01-22-2024, 07:37 PM
                              21 responses
                              133 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Working...
                              X