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Thread: Do the laws of the universe exist under materialism?

  1. #11
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    That's not answering the question. Are the laws observable physical properties or not?
    If they are just descriptive, then they don't exist independent of mind.
    The Natural Laws determined by science are descriptive, and dependent on our minds. The ultimate Natural Laws that determine the nature of our physical existence are independent of human minds.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    That's not answering the question. Are the laws observable physical properties or not? If they are just descriptive, then they don't exist independent of mind.
    You have to make a distinction here. The physical laws do independently exist, just like mathematics exists in some sort of Platonic sense. The mathematical description of these laws doesn't exist independent of mind, because they're based on inferences from physical events. I do agree that there's some difficulty understanding them on strict materialism, but the idea of a "law of nature" in itself has somewhat Christian origins...

    The laws themselves are not observable physical properties; they're attempts to explain regularities, just like any scientific theory is. You can also look at it like this: the laws describe what usually happens; they don't force anything to happen in and of themselves.
    Last edited by psstein; 03-05-2017 at 03:50 AM.

  3. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber Quantum Weirdness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Physical laws are not existing things in their own right, if they were, where would you say that they exist, what would you say that they are made of, and how would they interact with matter? The laws are simply the way in which matter, in accord with its own determined nature, acts. The fact that matter acts according to its nature is an existing fact independent of the mind, but there are no self existing laws that govern nature. It is what it is, and thats alls that it is.
    So let me rephrase the question. Is its 'nature' a physical observable property? Or is it matter? Or is it something else? Please elaborate.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    So let me rephrase the question. Is its 'nature' a physical observable property? Or is it matter? Or is it something else? Please elaborate.
    'Nature' as used here is in reference to a too broad of a concept for the question to have a coherent answer.

    Source: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS731US731&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=NAture+definition&*


    na·ture noun 1. the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Yes, nature has observable physical properties, but nature is also governed by Natural Laws, which are not observable physical properties like the things of nature, such as 'matter.'
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  7. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  8. #16
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    Excellent reference!!!!
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #17
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    I am distressed at having to agree with JimL, firstfloor, and Shunyadragon.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    And if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
    Yes the laws of the universe exist under materialism; there is no logically coherent alternative to materialism.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  11. #19
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Yes the laws of the universe exist under materialism; there is no logically coherent alternative to materialism.
    The laws of the universe exist indifferent and regardless of which philosophy or theology we believe.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  12. #20
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The laws of the universe exist indifferent and regardless of which philosophy or theology we believe.
    I believe the question in the OP is whether or not the physical laws have some sort of independent existence from the materialistic world in which they are found. As if the world were designed using such pre-existing laws. If that were true, then the laws exist in and of themselves, but it isn't true, and the laws don't self exist, at least there is no evidence or reason to believe so, they are simply human terms descriptive of the nature of the materialistic world.

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