Originally posted by shunyadragon
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Do the laws of the universe exist under materialism?
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostOthers have already said as much, but I'll throw in my two cents, here.
The phrase "laws of the universe" refers to human-language descriptions of observed behaviors within the universe. So, these descriptions don't have physical existence (beyond the physical configurations of the brains conceiving them, if mind-body duality is not true). However, if you are asking whether the behaviors which they describe exist, that seems patently obvious. For example, in this case, to ask if Gravity exists is akin to asking if massive bodies are actually attracted to one another in the real world. The answer to that seems to be "yes."
I'm not sure I understand you, here. If the physical laws exist independently in a Platonic sense, then they do exist independently of mind. If you are a Platonist, and mathematics exists in such a sense, then the mathematical descriptions of physical laws exist in such a sense.-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
Comment
-
Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostWell the behaviors exist certainly. But why do they exist? Is there some observable physical property that allow (or force?) them to do as they do consistently? Or is it something else?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
Comment
-
I am including these two posts together, because they both ask the question 'why?.' One from an agnostic/atheist perspective, and the other a Theist perspective.
Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostWell the behaviors exist certainly. But why do they exist? Is there some observable physical property that allow (or force?) them to do as they do consistently? Or is it something else?Originally posted by JimLWhy, why do you believe that the laws themselves exist in their own right?
Originally posted by Boxing PythagorasOthers have already said as much, but I'll throw in my two cents, here.
The phrase "laws of the universe" refers to human-language descriptions of observed behaviors within the universe. So, these descriptions don't have physical existence (beyond the physical configurations of the brains conceiving them, if mind-body duality is not true). However, if you are asking whether the behaviors which they describe exist, that seems patently obvious. For example, in this case, to ask if Gravity exists is akin to asking if massive bodies are actually attracted to one another in the real world. The answer to that seems to be "yes."
I'm not sure I understand you, here. If the physical laws exist independently in a Platonic sense, then they do exist independently of mind. If you are a Platonist, and mathematics exists in such a sense, then the mathematical descriptions of physical laws exist in such a sense.Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-10-2017, 07:29 AM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostIt would seem that way, at least for some. Using my previous example of Gravity, the behavior which we observe is due to the curvature of spacetime-- or, to be more precise, the curvature of spacetime is the behavior which we observe.-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
Comment
-
Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostOk. So these properties have meanings independent of mind? Or is nominalism true w.r.t. these properties' meanings? Or are the properties their respective meanings themselves? (i.e the curvature of space-time that we observe is the meaning of the curvature of space time.)"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
Comment
-
It sounds as though some of you think truth exists independent of opinions.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt sounds as though some of you think truth exists independent of [human] opinions.Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe facts of the natural universe exist independent of opinions; there is no substantive evidence of anything else existing.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Comment
-
Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostI apologize profusely. It never occurred to me that anyone would fail to see the obvious sarcasm of my post. But you two . . .
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe question 'why?' and 'is there something else?' are philosophical/theological questions, and science does not, and honestly cannot answer the question. The objective evidence does not address anthropomorphic relationships of what may be 'allowed' or 'forced' concerning the relationship between Laws of Nature and the physical nature of our existence, ie the existence of matter and energy in various forms. Science deals with the matter of fact existence of matter and energy, and the Laws of Nature. I like Boxing Pythagoras's answer, and not much else can be said.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostThat which is being described exists independently of the description. The curvature of spacetime exists, whether or not it is described by a mind as "the curvature of spacetime."-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
Comment
-
Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostI apologize profusely. It never occurred to me that anyone would fail to see the obvious sarcasm of my post. But you two . . .
Comment
-
Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostOk. But if it doesn't have meaning, then isn't it meaningless to talk about how things happened back then?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
|
172 responses
608 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by seer
04-15-2024, 11:55 AM
|
Comment