Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 678
Results 71 to 76 of 76

Thread: Do the laws of the universe exist under materialism?

  1. #71
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,218
    Amen (Given)
    1131
    Amen (Received)
    782
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    The stuff that makes up the universe and cannot be broken down any further.
    That would be the world of Quantum Mechanics.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #72
    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Oregon
    Faith
    Non-Theist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,577
    Amen (Given)
    2084
    Amen (Received)
    1072
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    Yes. Its own nature. Now, certainly, its nature exists. What is its nature, then?

    Some definitions of nature I found.

    And

    According to the Oxford dictionary, one definition of nature is:

    These define nature in terms of :
    -essence (which is defined in terms of properties)
    -an "inner principle of change and being at rest" and inner principles are properties
    -characteristics, which are properties

    Perhaps I am confused here. What distinguishes something's nature from its properties?
    Humans have always attempted to define and categorize things. It's a futile pursuit. Ideas like 'essence' and 'nature vs properties' are indicative of this, but it's easy to see how quickly they fail.

    Nothing distinguishes something's nature from its properties. They're simply different ways of talking about the same thing. Patterns and behaviors are more of the same, with the frequent addition of relationship to other things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    Well, I'm not just talking about atoms, but the fundamental substance. Why do the physical patterns emerge from the fundamental substance (i.e. one which cannot be reduced)? The physical patterns are behaviors of the substance and hence, come about because of the fundamental substance and its properties.Therefore, the behaviors are not brute facts. The pattern is regular and hence, the substance behaves regularly. Assuming materialism, the substance may have some properties that make it behave the way it does. If it doesn't have such properties, then we would have difficulty explaining the regularity of the patterns. That this substance exists with its properties may indeed be a brute fact, though behaviors cannot be brute facts.
    There is no fundamental substance. Behaviors can be brute facts as much as they rely on properties being brute facts. I think your entire approach here is off.
    I'm not here anymore.

  3. #73
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,398
    Amen (Given)
    1912
    Amen (Received)
    1297
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    The stuff that makes up the universe and cannot be broken down any further.
    The universe is made up of elementary particles, as studied by quantum mechanics, and these cannot be broken down any further. There is no essential “substance” underlying this “stuff”.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  4. #74
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,686
    Amen (Given)
    906
    Amen (Received)
    997
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    The universe is made up of elementary particles, as studied by quantum mechanics, and these cannot be broken down any further. There is no essential “substance” underlying this “stuff”.
    Although elementary particles are naught but ripples in a field, which would make the field more fundemental. So what is a field?

  5. Amen Carrikature amen'd this post.
  6. #75
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,218
    Amen (Given)
    1131
    Amen (Received)
    782
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Although elementary particles are naught but ripples in a field, which would make the field more fundemental. So what is a field?
    Quantum behavior of the basic particles of matter. This is the present limits of our present knowledge of Quantum Mechanics.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #76
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,398
    Amen (Given)
    1912
    Amen (Received)
    1297
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Although elementary particles are naught but ripples in a field, which would make the field more fundemental. So what is a field?
    Quantum mechanics bases its theorems on the probabilities of the wave functions of particles. This is the nearest at this stage of our scientific understanding, to arriving at anything “more fundamental”.

    But I was actually addressing Quantum Weirdness, who seemed to be arguing for the superseded Aristotelian notion of a difference between the ‘substance’ (i.e. the essential) and 'accidental' properties of things.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •