Mormon's Deny Paul the Apostle the Sacrament

[Sparko]

So, if somebody were on death row - no possibility of parole - and, as you know, he could be there for MANY years before execution... that person, no matter how "saved" he is, cannot be baptized OR have the Lord's Supper. (the only caveat being that somebody decides he is unjustly imprisoned)

Is that an accurate summary?

Until he dies. THEN they can baptize him.

[Cow Poke]

Until he dies. THEN they can baptize him.

Well, not so fast! They can't baptize HIM, they have to wait a year and baptize somebody else FOR him.

I was going to add, but it would sound snarky... it puts the death row inmate in the position of ... if he wants to get baptized sooner, he needs to die quicker. Exactly right. In the MEAN TIME, they might discover new evidence that proves he's innocent or something.

It seems like an awfully convoluted "man designed" system to me.

Add to that the fact that Jeff seemed annoyed that Digits claimed there was this policy, but OC tells us exactly what it is.

[OtherCheek]

I thought that when you accepted Jesus all of your past sins were forgiven?

Ordinances are necessary in our faith.

Now you say they have to pay for them themselves by working off their sentence.

Making restitution, where it is in our power and ability to do so, is a necessary step in repentance. We spoke about this together at great length a month ago or so. I hope we don't need to start at ground ZERO all over again on that topic.

Did you work off the penalty for all of your past sins before you were baptized?

I had no sins when I was baptized.

and yet, if they are in spirit prison, why does not the same rule hold for them, that they have to work off their sentence in order to fulfill "repentence" before they can be baptized?

I don't know that "working off a sentence" is the correct way to describe it. Nevertheless, spirit prison has a purpose.

[OtherCheek]

I would not trust my soul to imperfect people, but I trust my soul to God through Christ as my mediator.

So do we.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

But I get what you're saying ... it's the same thing we've argued over concerning Eph 2:8-10.... I say we are saved by grace through faith, with Christ as my direct mediator to God, and you say our grace is not fully in effect until we pay the full penalty of our sin.

Not exactly. We cannot pay the full penalty of our sins. But we can usually make some measure of restitution for our sins against our fellow man. And that measure of restitution that we CAN make to our fellow man, I believe it is our responsibility TO make.

[QUOTE=CP;2956088]
This, of course, in my opinion, nullifies God's forgiveness/mercy/grace.[/qutoe]

IMO, it just puts some responsibility and accountability back on our shoulders, instead of making the Atonement a total "bailout" plan.

You see, I believe that only those who are humble, and truly penitent will be able to receive the full measure of God's grace, because they will want and yearn for the chance to make restitution to their fellow man for that wrongs they have committed against them.

So, if somebody were on death row - no possibility of parole - and, as you know, he could be there for MANY years before execution... that person, no matter how "saved" he is, cannot be baptized OR have the Lord's Supper. (the only caveat being that somebody decides he is unjustly imprisoned)
Is that an accurate summary?

If he is a murderer, on death row, then it is in the hands of God to judge anyway. The Bishop is a judge in Israel for the Church, he is not judging in God's place but in the Church's place. God judges for God. There is a difference here.

[Sparko]

Ordinances are necessary in our faith.



Making restitution, where it is in our power and ability to do so, is a necessary step in repentance. We spoke about this together at great length a month ago or so. I hope we don't need to start at ground ZERO all over again on that topic.

since when is doing restitution an "ordinance?"

so you can't even get "saved" until AFTER you make restitution? I thought you had to do that after becoming a mormon and being baptized. now you say you have to work off your sins before you can become a mormon. So basically Jesus isn't doing anything for you then. You do all the work yourself.

I had no sins when I was baptized.

So you were baptized as a child then?

I don't know that "working off a sentence" is the correct way to describe it. Nevertheless, spirit prison has a purpose.

and that purpose is?

[Cow Poke]

Not exactly. We cannot pay the full penalty of our sins. But we can usually make some measure of restitution for our sins against our fellow man. And that measure of restitution that we CAN make to our fellow man, I believe it is our responsibility TO make

"some measure"?
Didn't you already say that a prisoner would have to serve out his whole term* to repay his debt to society?
Please correct me if I misunderstood.

OK... two guys on death row.
One is destitute and has no hope of reprieve - he's there to die.
The other has connections and the means to manage one appeal after another, and challenges and hearings and is constantly working the system.
Both have committed the same exact offense, same prison sentence.

They both confess Christ and want to join the Mormon Church.
They're both on death row, so the sacraments (particularly Baptism) can't be had until they have "paid their debt to society".

A high dollar lawyer manages to get guy #2 a new trial on some arcane technicality (it happens all the time) and guy #2 is set free! He has officially paid his debt to society, though he is just as guilty as guy #1 who hasn't the means for endless legal battles.

Would your religious system allow man's legal system to decide the fate of a man's baptism?

* I meant "sentence", not term.... I got my criminals and politicians mixed up

[OtherCheek]

"some measure"?
Didn't you already say that a prisoner would have to serve out his whole term to repay his debt to society?
Please correct me if I misunderstood.

Those are the laws of the land that require that a person remain in jail until he is released.

Also, some crimes are different than others. Sexual misconduct are frowned upon by the Church more than traffic violations for example. But both can land you in jail.

CP, there are such things as general rules that apply to most situations. After that there may be exceptions, but exceptions are called exceptions because they are more rare than not. The LDS Church does not create a pert chart or flow chart for every possible circumstance conceivable in life. We don't have decision trees to handle every situation. We conduct the affairs of the Church by the Spirit as best we can. And guess what, we are imperfect. Exceptions to rules are handled on a case by case basis, and there are exceptions that occur in the Church. Just like there are probably exceptions which occur in your church from time to time.

If Paul, or Joseph (WHO WAS SOLD INTO EGYPT), or Peter, or Jeremiah, were living in our day, I'm pretty sure that exceptions would be made whereby they could partake of the sacrament while in jail if they wanted to.

Would your religious system allow man's legal system to decide the fate of a man's baptism?

Answered earlier in the thread. The judgment of men in civil affairs, and even Bishops in the church is not perfect. God's judgment is.

No one who qualifies for the kingdom of heaven will miss it because of a judgment here on earth.

How bout you? Do you sent people from your church to Yemen or Iran to preach Jesus Christ? Are you going to let man's legal system decide the spiritual fate of a family in Iran?

[Cow Poke]

Those are the laws of the land that require that a person remain in jail until he is released.

OK, OC... no problem. I'm learning.

[OtherCheek]

OK, OC... no problem. I'm learning.

Thanks.

[Cow Poke]

Thanks.

Any time!

[Sparko]

yeah I got it too. Prison, no sacraments. Dead, OK Fine.

[OtherCheek]

yeah I got it too. Prison, no sacraments. Dead, OK Fine.

How do you handle it in your mega church, Sparko, if a convicted pedophile for example has a come to Jesus moment in prison, and want's baptism and communion?

[Sparko]

How do you handle it in your mega church, Sparko, if a convicted pedophile for example has a come to Jesus moment in prison, and want's baptism and communion?

We baptize him and give him communion in the prison.

[OtherCheek]

We baptize him and give him communion in the prison.

Is he then justified in his pedophilia?

[digits]

Sparko is it OK for me to ask what mega church you go to?