Lay up treasure

[lee_merrill]

... in heaven! What's with the usual counsel to have an IRA and a good portfolio? Here is the one place, the only place I can recall, where someone had a good savings account:

"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God." (Luke 12:21 NIV)

Well, there were kings like Solomon too, come to think of if. Hint--it didn't work out so well.

"He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold." (Deu 17:17 NIV)

David was rich also, and here's what he did with his savings:

"I now give my personal treasures of gold and silver for the temple of my God, over and above everything I have provided for this holy temple." (1Ch 29:3 NIV)

And this toward the end of his life. Now lest we think that the parable of the "you have much goods stored up for many years" is just about miserliness and not giving to those in need, we have this as the next verse:

Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear." (Luke 12:22 NIV)

Don't worry! but still save up--a comfortable nest egg?

"Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds!" (Luke 12:24 NIV)

"No storeroom or barn" would be odd language if everyone is to be urged to keep a nest egg.

"Consider how the flowers grow; they do not work or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these!" (Luke 12:27 NET)

There's poor Solomon again, and the flowers surpass him here. Now we're to work if we can (2 Th. 3:10), but when we can't, then we can consider the flowers. No IRA here, that I can see.

And to make this perfectly clear, we're all familiar with this oft-quoted verse:

"But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well." (Luke 12:31 NIV)

What is not usually evident, is that this preceding verse uses the same word:

"And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried." (Luke 12:2 ESV)

Don't seek it--but seek the kingdom. Where's a no-portfolio smilie when you need one?

Blessings,
Lee

[seanD]

Nothing has made those passages more of a stark reality to me than current events in our (western) economy.

[lee_merrill]

Nothing has made those passages more of a stark reality to me than current events in our (western) economy.

I had an object lesson when I was at Lucent, when the stock value dropped and stayed at a fraction of its former value. And this not long after the president of the company said he advised his mom to put all her life savings in to blue chip Lucent stock.

She's no doubt been chasing him around the yard for a while now.

[seanD]

... in heaven! What's with the usual counsel to have an IRA and a good portfolio? Here is the one place, the only place I can recall, where someone had a good savings account:

"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God." (Luke 12:21 NIV)

Well, there were kings like Solomon too, come to think of if. Hint--it didn't work out so well.

"He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold." (Deu 17:17 NIV)

David was rich also, and here's what he did with his savings:

"I now give my personal treasures of gold and silver for the temple of my God, over and above everything I have provided for this holy temple." (1Ch 29:3 NIV)

And this toward the end of his life. Now lest we think that the parable of the "you have much goods stored up for many years" is just about miserliness and not giving to those in need, we have this as the next verse:

Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear." (Luke 12:22 NIV)

Don't worry! but still save up--a comfortable nest egg?

"Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds!" (Luke 12:24 NIV)

"No storeroom or barn" would be odd language if everyone is to be urged to keep a nest egg.

"Consider how the flowers grow; they do not work or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these!" (Luke 12:27 NET)

There's poor Solomon again, and the flowers surpass him here. Now we're to work if we can (2 Th. 3:10), but when we can't, then we can consider the flowers. No IRA here, that I can see.

And to make this perfectly clear, we're all familiar with this oft-quoted verse:

"But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well." (Luke 12:31 NIV)

What is not usually evident, is that this preceding verse uses the same word:

"And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried." (Luke 12:2 ESV)

Don't seek it--but seek the kingdom. Where's a no-portfolio smilie when you need one?

Blessings,
Lee

Us Christians had better really meditate on this in the coming months.

[Obsidian]

There is nothing immoral about storing wealth, and I wish you would stop bumping up this old thread in an attempt to argue that there is something wrong with it. In fact, the economic problems which you seem to be lamenting about are actually the result of our collective tendency to waste wealth and our failure to store it up / invest it.

[seanD]

There is nothing immoral about storing wealth, and I wish you would stop bumping up this old thread in an attempt to argue that there is something wrong with it. In fact, the economic problems which you seem to be lamenting about are actually the result of our collective tendency to waste wealth and our failure to store it up / invest it.

I only “bumped it” one time.

Of course we could engage in a full-on Christian debate on what Jesus actually instructed about finances, but I advise you not to go there. It would be a debate that I’m sure you would find highly unfavorable because I would skewer you in that debate

And besides, that wasn’t my point (if it was, I would find myself in a very hypocritical position). It’s really not so much a “moral” issue. It’s kind of like building a house on a coastline that gets frequent hits of 10.0 earthquakes off the shore, and disregarding a sign that strictly says building property on the coastline is prohibited by law. You and I can debate on the legalities of it, but it’s not so much the legal issue we need to worry about than the issue that it could be severely unfavorable to one’s health and their assets.

[Obsidian]

There is nothing "unfavorable to one's health and their assets" about storing up wealth. Your position is wrong.

Proverbs 6

6 Go to the ant, you sluggard;
consider its ways and be wise!
7 It has no commander,
no overseer or ruler,
8 yet it stores its provisions in summer
and gathers its food at harvest.

[seanD]

There is nothing "unfavorable to one's health and their assets" about storing up wealth. Your position is wrong.

Proverbs 6

6 Go to the ant, you sluggard;
consider its ways and be wise!
7 It has no commander,
no overseer or ruler,
8 yet it stores its provisions in summer
and gathers its food at harvest.

It’s no wonder you would dig through the Old Testament and cherry pick a Proverbs passage to support your argument, because you know, as well as every other Christian, the obvious glaring teachings of Jesus (some of which Lee displayed for us all in the OP) that would simply squash any silly argument you’re attempting to make. And yet it isn’t even relative to the point I’m making here. You just like arguing for the sake of arguing, Obsidian. It’s not a debate about wealth. It’s about the current situation and coming to the realization why Jesus taught those things. Jesus didn't teach those things because he was deluded about its impracticality to the world and the world to come, but that they are teachings we Christians need to take heed, at least mentally, especially now.

[Obsidian]

It's sad that you think Jesus disagreed with Proverbs.

[seanD]

It's sad that you think Jesus disagreed with Proverbs.

Did he? Well, then I guess you found a bonafide contradiction in the bible, didn’t you. Congratulations. When something in the bible contradicts what Jesus taught (especially in a book like Proverbs, which came from a faithless king who God had admonished for his idolatry and nullified as the royal seed of which Messiah would come), I’ll give the teachings of my Lord and Savior the benefit of the doubt.

[Zguy28]

I don't think "storing wealth" is an objectively evil (or good) act. It depends on the motive. For instance, I am saving money away to send my children to a Christian college (and hopefully seminary) and to help them if they choose to become missionaries (or whatever else God has in store). There is nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything in the bible to contradict it. That is in fact fulfilling the parable of the shrewd manager and the parable of talents (putting it away to gain interest, what the evil servant should have done). That is serving God in wisdom.

However, hoarding money just for money's sake or to purchase something that in no way honors God or builds up the fellowship is an example of a wrong and evil motive. That is serving money.

[seanD]

That is in fact fulfilling the parable of the shrewd manager and the parable of talents (putting it away to gain interest, what the evil servant should have done). That is serving God in wisdom.

The problem with that parable is that it wasn’t specifically instructions on finances, it was an allegory about being prepared for Christ’s coming. The passages Lee pointed out in the OP were direct commands specifically given to us by Jesus about finances.

I don't think "storing wealth" is an objectively evil (or good) act. It depends on the motive. For instance, I am saving money away to send my children to a Christian college (and hopefully seminary) and to help them if they choose to become missionaries (or whatever else God has in store). There is nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything in the bible to contradict it. That is in fact fulfilling the parable of the shrewd manager and the parable of talents (putting it away to gain interest, what the evil servant should have done). That is serving God in wisdom.


However, hoarding money just for money's sake or to purchase something that in no way honors God or builds up the fellowship is an example of a wrong and evil motive. That is serving money.

Jesus was the epitome of a man walking in perfect faith in God. Jesus’ teachings reflect this perfect individual of faith. This is something that none of us have reached, and probably won’t ever reach it in this life, but this is hopefully at least what we’re striving for. But this is something we have to come to grips with – that we are simply imperfect. Zguy28, I’m sorry, but there’s simply no possible way you can say that saving money is not contradictory to what Jesus taught when it is in a direct contradiction to what Jesus taught. There’s no way around it other than simply denying it. But it perhaps wouldn’t be such a bitter pill for Christians like me and you to swallow and come to grips with if we just admitted the fact that we’re not perfect in this respect. But to take the common route of denying what Jesus clearly taught to the contrary because it’s not practical or convenient is dangerous and probably bordering on outright blasphemy. My advice is the same I’m trying to follow myself which is at least being honest and meditating on those commands that Jesus gave us about finances, and praying about it, even though I may not be following it myself. It’s not easy for me to come to grips with it than anyone else, but researching on how the economy works and what’s happening in the economy has personally never made this more easy for me to do, thus I’m starting to really see the significance of what Jesus taught about this issue more and more. He wasn’t just giving us an impossible and utterly impractical criteria to follow, he was giving us a warning, and I’m afraid there is going to be so many Christians that are in for a horrible experience because they weren’t (at least mentally) prepared for what’s inevitably coming.

[Obsidian]

However, hoarding money just for money's sake or to purchase something that in no way honors God or builds up the fellowship is an example of a wrong and evil motive.

No it isn't. And I already quoted the proverb to prove it.

[John Reece]

Jesus' sayings should be understood in terms of the contexts in which he makes them, noting to whom he is speaking and for what reason.

For instance, Jesus concludes the parable of the rich fool (Luke 12 13-21) by saying "So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God" ― which specifies an avariciously selfish person who is not rich toward God; which says nothing about a person who is rich toward God and unselfishly acquires wealth so as to be able to exercise the gift of giving wisely in support Christian ministries and various worthy causes as led by Holy Spirit, as well as providing for his family and others as a wise and responsible person.

The Bible as a whole does not teach that all God's people should devoid themselves of personal property and wealth on the basis of sayings of Jesus that were spoken to specific individuals and/or about specific kinds of people regarding conditions not necessarily applicable to all people at all times in all generations.

[seanD]

The Bible as a whole does not teach that all God's people should devoid themselves of personal property and wealth on the basis of sayings of Jesus that were spoken to specific individuals and/or about specific kinds of people regarding conditions not necessarily applicable to all people at all times in all generations.

With all due respect John, this is just another rationale. This is the argument I often hear preterists use. To assume Jesus was talking just to his generation and not giving general teachings to the church as a whole is also a dangerous mindset, IMO. We could assume this is the case with just about the whole NT. Paul wasn't specifically addressing future Christians, he was addressing churches of his generation, which is why there are many things Paul taught that aren't practical or applicable to us today. But we don't disregard what Paul taught just because he never had a postmodern church 2,000 years later in mind in his teachings. There is obviously an inherent truth in his teachings even if some of his teachings aren't practical to us or our way of life.

I agree that what Jesus taught about finances was not based on asceticism or a specific morality, but a specific state of mind. Bill Gates could be a successful Christian if he was of the right state of mind. However, the odds are that Gates wouldn't be of the right state mind, because to be wealthy, you need to have a state of mind that is solely worldly, thus it's close to an impossibility that he would be able to abandon his wealth (at least mentally) and solely focus on God. It's an axiomatic paradox. How many of us Christians are of that right state of mind? I know I'm not, which is why I don't rationalize those teachings away, but meditate on them everyday. How many of us, if we lost everything for ourselves and our children and became destitute overnight, would not become disillusioned with our faith or blame God and fall away from the faith as a result (like those of the Parable of the Sower who were locked into the "cares of this world") ? When Christians look for rationales about what Jesus plainly taught about fiances, chances are, they're probably not of that right state of mind.