Request: Scripture to refute "The Rapture"

[seanD]

The essense of the "church age" doctrine is seriously fouled up. God is not dealing with the 'Gentiles' one way, now, and waiting to deal with Hebrews later. All ethnicities can come to belief in Christ, now. This wrong-headed thinking is why some misguided Christians think that the Hebrews are still 'God's people.' Christians are God's people.

Romans 11:25-27 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

I don't think anyone's arguing how God will deal with the Jews, are they? No one knows this for sure (though Rev seems to give some clue, but this is up for interpretation). The argument is that God will deal with the Jews as a whole later at an appointed time (either the nation of Israel, most likely, or a separate group of Jews), after the time of Gentiles is fulfilled. The scriptures here are pretty clear about it.

[TyRockwell]

Romans 11:25-27 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

I don't think anyone's arguing how God will deal with the Jews, are they? No one knows this for sure (though Rev seems to give some clue, but this is up for interpretation). The argument is that God will deal with the Jews as a whole later at an appointed time (either the nation of Israel, most likely, or a separate group of Jews), after the time of Gentiles is fulfilled. The scriptures here are pretty clear about it.

You are almost quite right, but the whole 9th, 10th and 11th chapters have to be considered, not only the two verses you quoted. Yes, at a future time God will deal with the Hebrews, as a group, differently than now. There will bea certain time, a day, when "all Israel will be saved."

Here it is:
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon to me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zech 12:9-10 (KJV)

But in the present, He treats each of them like a Gentile, because they ARE Gentiles, they who have not been turned away from ungodliness (v. 26). Paul's point is that it isn't right to be conceited toward Jacob's descendants, or despise them as a group. Yes, they have blindness, for the time we are in, but it is the same situation the Gentiles were in before Christ came.

Make note of this from chapter 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:18-24 (KJV)

Just as God will show mercy to Gentiles who, during old covenant days did not know God, so He will have mercy on present-day Hebrews who do not know Christ. All present-day people and people groups who do not know God through Christ are blind. They will have the same mercy in judgment, based on what they knew. If they were not, and are not, intentionally in rebellion, they can be, or will be, a remnant chosen by grace. See Romans 11:5-6.

[MegaHertz]

My only rapture verse is one that is applied to just after Satan is sent to the lake after the 1,000 years is over.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

If I can stick my nose in for how the Jews and Gentiles differ in the last tribulation before Christ. Other than the 144,000 sealed prior to the trumps sounding no Jew makes it through the trib alive. At Christ's return the whole house going back to Jacob and Israel are restored to life and they arrive in Israel once the wrath of the 7 vials is over. For the Gentiles since the first advent we have been in the time of the Gentiles and that time will continue right up to the sound of the 7th trump as explained in Re:11. A the sound of the 7th trump 2/3 of mankind will die (as sinners) and the 1/3 that remain alive will be the Church. They are also called the remnant of the Nations and they come to the yearly Feast of the Tabernacles during the whole of the 1,000 years. The ones who die a Christ's 2nd coming are restored to life at Judgment Day. Both separate groups have slightly different positions in the new earth but both are alive and well.

[RBerman]

My only rapture verse is one that is applied to just after Satan is sent to the lake after the 1,000 years is over.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

How is that a "rapture verse"? In dispensational lore, the rapture will occur 1,000 years before the new heavens and earth. Unless your point is that the "rapture" is part of the return of Christ to earth just prior to the final judgment and the renewing of all things. In which case, I agree.

[MegaHertz]

How is that a "rapture verse"? In dispensational lore, the rapture will occur 1,000 years before the new heavens and earth. Unless your point is that the "rapture" is part of the return of Christ to earth just prior to the final judgment and the renewing of all things. In which case, I agree.

It is the first time men travel to heaven in a glorified body.
Nobody goes to heaven before Christ's actual physical return as that would be gathering the living before the dead are resurrected, a point that is covered in two places in the NT. Once Christ is here the Church would be where He is and that is on earth for the 1,000 years. God isn't mentioned as ruling with Christ and His appearance is first seen when fire from God in Heaven destroys Satan after his 'little season' that starts when he is released from the pit.
The judgment that happens when Christ returns is the gathering of the elect by Holy Angels that only happens as part od the destruction of the wicked at the very same time, it is the one mentioned at the beginning of Daniel 12, it is also the separation of the of the sheep from the goats as well as the Re:20:4 one. There are 24 human elders in heaven that come down with Christ and they would have to be the OT Saints that were resurrected at the time Jesus was, the breath of life that returns to God once a person dies would also be with Christ and the Angelic Army but the breath is not a living soul until it is reunited with the dust of the earth which is when the 5 senses would start to operate again so no new memories of being in Heaven could be recorded in the time between death (sleep) and being alive (resurrected in the very same state Jesus was on the morning of His resurrection, alive but not yet glorified).
For them and the ones gathered alive glorification would happen once they were at the living water as described in Eze:47. Drinking that water and eating the leaves on the trees would be when glorification takes place so that people can go around touching each other.

The fate of 'the rest' is in the hands of God at Judgment Day which happens right after this verse is said to happen and it is applied to the verse I already posted and the ones alive are not under any judgment only the ones called 'the rest' are under the chastisement mentioned in the same chapter as the 2nd verse below.
Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[RBerman]

It is the first men travel to heaven in a glorified body.
Nobody goes to heaven before Christ's actual physical return as that would be gathering the living before the dead are resurrected, a point that is covered in two places in the NT. Once Christ is here the Church would be where He is and that is on earth for the 1,000 years. God isn't mentioned as ruling with Christ and His appearance is first seen when fire from God in Heaven destroys Satan after his 'little season' that starts when he is released from the pit.
The judgment that happens when Christ returns is the gathering of the elect by Holy Angels that only happens as part od the destruction of the wicked at the very same time, it is the one mentioned at the beginning of Daniel 12, it is also the separation of the of the sheep from the goats as well as the Re:20:4 one. There are 24 human elders in heaven that come down with Christ and they would have to be the OT Saints that were resurrected at the time Jesus was, the breath of life that returns to God once a person dies would also be with Christ and the Angelic Army but the breath is not a living soul until it is reunited with the dust of the earth which is when the 5 senses would start to operate again so no new memories of being in Heaven could be recorded in the time between death (sleep) and being alive (resurrected in the very same state Jesus was on the morning of His resurrection, alive but not yet glorified).
For them and the ones gathered alive glorification would happen once they were at the living water as described in Eze:47. Drinking that water and eating the leaves on the trees would be when glorification takes place so that people can go around touching each other.

The fate of 'the rest' is in the hands of God at Judgment Day which happens right after this verse is said to happen and it is applied to the verse I already posted and the ones alive are not under any judgment only the ones called 'the rest' are under the chastisement mentioned in the same chapter as the 2nd verse below.
Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

There are so many assumptions and tenuously supportable ideas in this post that it's difficult to know where to start. First I'll note that Hebrews 12:22-23 is not a prophecy of the eschaton, but rather is a description of how life in the New Covenant (symbolized by Mount Zion and a heavenly temple) is different than the Old Covenant (symbolized by the experience the children of Israel had at the foot of Mount Sinai in Exodus).

Hebrews 12:18-25

You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned." The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.

[MegaHertz]

There are so many assumptions and tenuously supportable ideas in this post that it's difficult to know where to start. First I'll note that Hebrews 12:22-23 is not a prophecy of the eschaton, but rather is a description of how life in the New Covenant (symbolized by Mount Zion and a heavenly temple) is different than the Old Covenant (symbolized by the experience the children of Israel had at the foot of Mount Sinai in Exodus).

There are so many assumptions and tenuously supportable ideas in this post that it's difficult to know where to start. Nothing is symbolic about any of Hebrews 12, the ones being chastised are the same ones Christ killed at His return as well as the ones going all the way back to Adam are judged as to whether of not they qualify as belong in this list or not. If not then they are part of 'the rest'. For 'the rest' their punishment is not being alive, when they are made alive again they have paid the price in full for any past crimes. So, rather than being sent to the lake of fire when that are resurrected they have to sin as described in Re:21 before they could be sent to the lake.

Re:20:4:
And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re:20:5:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

Hebrews 12:18-25

You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned." The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.

This is the location of Judgment Day.

2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Along with that verse is the one from Re:20 that says our earth and what we call the universe is not to be seen anywhere yet the throne is there as well as invited guests, all of mankind ans the 2/3 of the Angels that escaped being dragged down with Satan. God had to be somewhere before our Heaven and Earth were created. This little bit from Isa:65 also points to a physical separation and a physical world after being killed by His sword. The ones called His servants live inside New Jerusalem and no beast of the field can enter the city because they do not know about good and evil.

Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:

Later in this chapter the ones living and building are the same ones that fell to the sword. Judgment Day was their resurrection and they are the ones to populate the New Earth. The servants in this chapter stay inside New Jerusalem and they do not have to build anything, that is for life outside the city.

[RBerman]

God had to be somewhere before our Heaven and Earth were created.

Why is that? Who created that place, and when? I don't think the words "where" and "when" have any meaning until Genesis 1:1. Indeed, language fails us to talk about anything "Before the beginning" in a meaningful way.

Nothing is symbolic about any of Hebrews 12, the ones being chastised are the same ones Christ killed at His return as well as the ones going all the way back to Adam are judged as to whether of not they qualify as belong in this list or not.

That is not a fair treatment of the flow of Hebrews 12. The whole book is a series of comparisons between the Old Covenant (which has passed away by the time the author writes) and the New Covenant (which has now come to replace it). That's why the author speaks in the perfect tense. "You have not come to Mount Sinai. You have come to Mount Zion." It's not a prediction of a future that has not arrived, but of the present situation of the church. That's why the text goes on to tell us what we should do since we are "on Mount Zion," hearing the voice of God:

Hebrews 12:25

See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.

What elements in the text of Hebrews 12 give you the impression that it's speaking of the future and not the present?

[MegaHertz]

Why is that? Who created that place, and when? I don't think the words "where" and "when" have any meaning until Genesis 1:1. Indeed, language fails us to talk about anything "Before the beginning" in a meaningful way.

That is true for Genesis and the two mentioned there is God and the Holy Spirit, however, there is one more account of that time given in the Bible and once you read the whole passage it would be Christ's witness of how creation happened which also points to there being a place that is separated from the 'created places', including our known Universe and the void we are expanding into.

Proverb:8:22:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
Proverb:8:23:
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
Proverb:8:24:
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverb:8:25:
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
Proverb:8:26:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

That is not a fair treatment of the flow of Hebrews 12. The whole book is a series of comparisons between the Old Covenant (which has passed away by the time the author writes) and the New Covenant (which has now come to replace it).

The covenant that applied to blood sacrifice was the only thing that expired at the cross, Jesus gave the new covenant at the last supper, bread and wine as a remembrance to Him, that came into effect when He said, "It is finished" just before death. He didn't invoke any new covenant in the 40 days after the resurrection. The next time a new covenant can be made is at the end of the vial being poured out when the words are actually spoken by Christ, "It is done." in Re:16. At that time the whole house of Israel is alive and standing and all the righteous Gentiles are also alive and standing when those words are spoken. I could find a few OT verses that apply to that specific one and to the one that comes after that. That is Christ's covenant to the people who will be alive for the 1,000 years and that is in effect until Judgment Day. After the lake part is over the people left alive (all btw) and the ones from the 1,000 years are brought into an new covenant that is for the new earth, mankind comes under the Laws as specified by God in Re:21. The Laws for the 1,000 years are for the remnant of the Nations (Church) and the law is to come to the feast of the tabernacles yearly or suffer the no rain punishment for that year.
The cross invoked Jesus's two Laws into effect and that is what we are under today and that is what the world will be judged on on the day of His return.

Heb:8:8:
For finding fault with them,
he saith,
Behold,
the days come,
saith the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The "I" in the above is Christ, the covenant with Judah would have to include the ones being preached to in Matt:23 and in order to see Jesus they would have to be resurrected and Jesus would have to be standing before them. That can only happen after Christ has returned. Getting rid of the wicked is completed just after repenting ceases to be effective. The 7th trump sounding is when that particular part is in effect.

That's why the author speaks in the perfect tense. "You have not come to Mount Sinai. You have come to Mount Zion." It's not a prediction of a future that has not arrived, but of the present situation of the church. That's why the text goes on to tell us what we should do since we are "on Mount Zion," hearing the voice of God:

That sets the time and location and the next few verses set the event. Judgment is a batch process, there are two times that happens, at Christ's return and it is the separation of people into two groups. People who will be alive for the next 1,000 years (that become Priests and Kings to God and the Lamb) and the ones who are in the grave (asleep) or in Hell (alive and in torment, same as they caused when they were alive). In the chastisement part I assume you would agree that there is no punishment that follows the chastisement (no matter who the group is).

At Christ's return punishment is part of that judgment. It even starts with the Church so obviously it is not in effect today judging by the RCC in the headlines. The Bible puts it as the separation of the sheep and goats from Matt:25 and 1Pe:4:18 is when that judgment takes place. After the tribulation of the first two woes of Revelation and the judgment is the 3rd woe and it is called great tribulation. When that ends a few hours after it starts the covenant can be made with the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Jacob as described in Eze:37. The "I" person is Christ and the time is when He can say those very words and to do that He has to have returned, the whole process takes just as long as it takes Him to speak the words.

Hebrews 12:25

See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.

What elements in the text of Hebrews 12 give you the impression that it's speaking of the future and not the present?

Jesus was ascended to heaven before Hebrews was written so standing in front being verbally chastised had to be future from that time. An OT verse says that God has to tell people about what He is going to do before He does it if it is going to affect them. In keeping with that Hebrews is a prodhecy of some future events, almost down to the words but not quite, same as in Re:10. The names in the book of life that will be alive for the 1,000 years. Sweet because there are some names in it, bitter because the majority of all gentiles ever born are not in it at that time, their names are added at the Great White Throne event. Israel is a whole people at Christ's return and Gentiles (Church) become a whole people 1,000 years later at Judgment Day. Re:7 is how the gathering process functions. Once the soon time arrives (the same generation that sees the start sees the end kind of soon) but before any trumps sound 144,000 are sealed for protection from harm. These are the firstfruits and that same chapter also mentions a group of Gentiles, they are the last to be gathered (have blindness of Satan's deception lifted) and only the ones called 'the rest' have gone through 'great tribulation' (7th trump is the start of the 3rd woe and the vials are what is called great tribulation, punishment of those who had been been the terror of the land)

Scripture would also support the theory the description points to protection has a group of Gentiles that is specific as having resisted the mark of the beast (Re:15), the gathering process for the Church takes longer even though the gathering starts very close to the same time. Israel is complete at the start the 1,000 years as her punishment (partial blindness by God) is lifted and the past is over and an eternal period of time begins. To cover this in detail means taking Jeremiah 31 and the last few chapters of Zechariah into account as they add some needed support for the above summary.

[RBerman]

MegaHertz, you give an able description of the Dispensational Futurist reading of Revelation. I don't subscribe to that general approach, so I have a substantially different understanding of Revelation. Are you familiar with the various general approaches to that book?

[TyRockwell]

MegaHertz, you give an able description of the Dispensational Futurist reading of Revelation. I don't subscribe to that general approach, so I have a substantially different understanding of Revelation. Are you familiar with the various general approaches to that book?

He does not sound like ANY Dispie Futurist I ever heard. Its too weird.

I think he must be John Goddard or Rainbow Brite.

[MegaHertz]

MegaHertz, you give an able description of the Dispensational Futurist reading of Revelation. I don't subscribe to that general approach, so I have a substantially different understanding of Revelation. Are you familiar with the various general approaches to that book?

For the most part, how many apply the 42 months (3 1/2 years)of the Beast to just the 5th and 6th trumps? That pretty much clashes with most versions I have read.

He does not sound like ANY Dispie Futurist I ever heard. Its too weird.
I think he must be John Goddard or Rainbow Brite.

Perhaps if you were a tad more specific I could get into the finer points of what verses have led me to have a 'weird' version. That you view it that way (and you are certainly not alone but that in itself does not make your version the more accurate, it only makes it the more popular) means you don't understand my position very well. In my post I touched on Isaiah 65 as being about certain things related to who is who from basically this point in time and into a bit of how the New Earth works.

Since the chapter is a prophecy that involves Christ it is also a narrative from His point of view. Several times in history might apply but only once in the whole Bible does Christ ever use His sword on anybody. God killed several different groups in the OT, only with Christ's sword are the victims also punished further as they are according to the NT and in the description in Ch:65. Also in harmony with the sequence laid out in Revelation is the fact the new Earth is revealed after that description of the 'saved' and 'the rest' in Isa:65. That some people can't even see (let alone accept) is that the chapter is Christ talking to the ones who will be called 'the rest' during the 1,000 years. We can't accept that they have any future in the new world, that is an error on our understanding. Another book also refers to the 1,000 years but in a slightly different way and it is also about 'the rest'. Revelation reveals that the 'many days' is actually 1,000 years.

Isa:24:22:
And they shall be gathered together,
as prisoners are gathered in the pit,
and shall be shut up in the prison,
and after many days shall they be visited.

Do these points below (not all have a connection at this point) have validity or not as a summary of what the Bible is saying in certain parts?

In a verse previous to Daniel 9 where he is made aware of the day for a year thing are the words, time, times, and half a time that is used for the most part in modern doctrines as being 3 1/2 years. If the knowledge was given before the prophecy I would agree more than I do at this point. Going into a longer post I could show the link between the time the two witnesses lay dead (3 1/2 day) is what that prophecy in Daniel is referring to. That point alone would impact most doctrines.

When Christ turns his hand to the 'little ones' in Zec:13:7 that is the beginning of the judgment that is the 3rd woe of Revelation, the 7 vials are what kills the 2/3. The 1/3 are the over-comers of the 7 Churches. Based on the fulfillment of the scattering of His followers on the night of His arrest.

Jeremiah 31 is the gathering of Israel after Christ is on Earth to call them to a home that He is in control of. In that passage the land of the enemy can be shown to be death as the children being mentioned are the 2 and under infants that Herod had killed. Having that mean death rather than foreign Nations also changes certain things and some doctrines would fold completely.

The resurrection of Eze:37 and the river of Eze:47 are literal events and places once the time for those things arrives.

So while you have the right to say I'm wrong most arguments contain something a little more detailed than 'weird'. The only real difference is saying the 70 weeks is over in the time of Jesus and Revelation cannot use the last week of Daniel to support any end time doctrine time-line. As it is, the 42 months of the Beast and the 3 1/2 years of the two witnesses and the time, times, and a half of the last woman of Re:12 all run at the same time and they all end at the same time, the 7th trump.
Surely somebody has promoted that at sometime?

[RBerman]

For the most part, how many apply the 42 months (3 1/2 years)of the Beast to just the 5th and 6th trumps? That pretty much clashes with most versions I have read.

The very question is laden with a host of interpretive assumptions which you don't seem to recognize. You would be well served to read a book like Revelation: Four Views to broaden your understanding of the various approaches to the book.

[MegaHertz]

The very question is laden with a host of interpretive assumptions which you don't seem to recognize. You would be well served to read a book like Revelation: Four Views to broaden your understanding of the various approaches to the book.

But ... but ... I just got it narrowed down to one.

[TyRockwell]

For the most part, how many apply the 42 months (3 1/2 years)of the Beast to just the 5th and 6th trumps? That pretty much clashes with most versions I have read.

I have taken my time to respond to your posts. I didn't want to lightly toss out the things you have proposed. Though you did not give much information to support your ideas, I wanted to look into them for any possibility of their veracity. I will address points in this thread, and some points on the same topic in the "Sticky: 70 weeks Commentary" thread.

Perhaps if you were a tad more specific I could get into the finer points of what verses have led me to have a 'weird' version. That you view it that way (and you are certainly not alone but that in itself does not make your version the more accurate, it only makes it the more popular) means you don't understand my position very well.

My earlier comments were my original impressions concerning your ideas, and I admit, an abrupt dismissal of them. Since then, I have sought to understand your position.

First, I have to say that if you introduce a new idea into a discussion, you need to give some underpinning, by reasoning, or logic, analogy, or pattern of symbolism. I understand easily enough, how you want to fit a part of Daniel into the future, that is, your theory that the three and a half years of Daniel 7 relate to the 42 months of the two witnesses. I have ruminated that the second half of the 70th week might refer to the time of the prophesying of the two witnesses, but I still have serious doubts about that scenario.

That said, I can quickly and confidently reject your assumption that the three and a half "times" of Daniel 7 coincide with the two witnesses. This is because I am convinced that the half-week of Daniel 7 is the first half of the 70th week, and coincides with the three and a half year ministry of Jesus the Messiah. That leaves the second half of the 70th week to mean either the 66-70 AD seige and destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, or the 42 months of the two witnesses. Right now, I am leaning back toward the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In this, then, I am not a futurist. Also, regarding the destruction of the Temple, I am not a futurist.

Now, going back to your position, I didn't get from your posts how you think the three and a half "times" in Daniel 7:25 is the second half of the 70th week, since you don't specify what is the first half. And, you make the 'times' the 42 months, just prior to the seventh trumpet.

But you hurt your own argument, saying that the 42 months, the three and a half times, is taking place during the 5th and 6th trumpets. A period of 5 months takes place with the 5th trumpet, but no 42 months is mentioned, and no three and a half years. In the 6th trumpet, the words "hour and day and month and year" is given, but no 42 months, and no three and a half years, since the description of the 6th trumpet stops at the end of chapter 9.

To me, the words that are in these trumpets, that cover chronological periods, argues against the use of other blocks of months or years, or times. That would be mixing up sets of metaphorical periods with no distinctions. God is not the Author of confusion.

Another thing, when considering the trumpets, you must bear in mind that Jesus is the First Trumpet, as revealed in Revelation 1:10-18, particularly verse 10. Taking into account that he was talking to John at the end of the 1st Century, and the futurist's tendency to squeeze the trumpets into a 'final' set of years, then they are putting at least 1900 years between the First Trumpet and the remaining trumpets. That is, they put about 1900 years between Rev. 8:7 and Rev. 8:8. Not a good thing to do.

The church was expecting the seventh trumpet, the Last Trumpet, to sound in their lifetimes in the first century. Therefore, trumpets one through six were already underway and in progress at that time. We still await the seventh trumpet.

In my post I touched on Isaiah 65 as being about certain things related to who is who from basically this point in time and into a bit of how the New Earth works.
Since the chapter is a prophecy that involves Christ it is also a narrative from His point of view. Several times in history might apply but only once in the whole Bible does Christ ever use His sword on anybody. God killed several different groups in the OT, only with Christ's sword are the victims also punished further as they are according to the NT and in the description in Ch:65.

You are trying to make a principle out of an action not taken, with the "Christ never used the sword on anybody" thing. To the contrary, Jesus IS the Word of God, thus making God's commands to put people to the sword Jesus' commands. Also, The Word of God is a sharp double-edged sword, and sharper, in Hebrews 4:12, which also procedes from his own mouth. (Rev. 1:16) See also Isaiah 1:20.

In Isaiah, God said that He would fight along with Nebuchadnezzar to defeat Israel, and plunder Jerusalem and burn the temple, putting people to the sword, and taking the survivors into captivity in Babylon.

As for the "New Heavens and New Earth" in Isaiah 65:17-25, you need to notice that in numerous prophetic passages, prophecies of things to happen in the far distant future are plopped down into a section having a much nearer fulfillment.

Also in harmony with the sequence laid out in Revelation is the fact the new Earth is revealed after that description of the 'saved' and 'the rest' in Isa:65. That some people can't even see (let alone accept) is that the chapter is Christ talking to the ones who will be called 'the rest' during the 1,000 years. We can't accept that they have any future in the new world, that is an error on our understanding.

I don't know of anyone saying there won't be natural human beings in the 1000 year reign who can die in that time. People saying that would be a very small minority.

Are you confusing the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth, this earth, with the New Heavens and New Earth? In the new heavens and new earth there will be no more dying, or sickness or anything of the curse of sin and death. But in the Milleneum, there are mortal people, and if one dies at only 100 years old, he will be thought to have died young.

Another book also refers to the 1,000 years but in a slightly different way and it is also about 'the rest'. Revelation reveals that the 'many days' is actually 1,000 years.

Isa:24:22:
And they shall be gathered together,
as prisoners are gathered in the pit,
and shall be shut up in the prison,
and after many days shall they be visited.

Do these points below (not all have a connection at this point) have validity or not as a summary of what the Bible is saying in certain parts?

You have in no way come close to explaining or showing Biblical evidence that 'many days' is actually 1000 years. You have a lot to prove, and you will not be able to do it. And it isn't there in Isaiah 24:22.

In a verse previous to Daniel 9 where he is made aware of the day for a year thing are the words, time, times, and half a time that is used for the most part in modern doctrines as being 3 1/2 years. If the knowledge was given before the prophecy I would agree more than I do at this point. Going into a longer post I could show the link between the time the two witnesses lay dead (3 1/2 day) is what that prophecy in Daniel is referring to. That point alone would impact most doctrines.

You are attempting to re-invent the wheel in your own image. It can't be done. A lot of things appear in prophetic scripture only one time, or are introduced in prophecy, that was not mentioned before it appeared in the prophecy.

When Christ turns his hand to the 'little ones' in Zec:13:7 that is the beginning of the judgment that is the 3rd woe of Revelation, the 7 vials are what kills the 2/3. The 1/3 are the over-comers of the 7 Churches. Based on the fulfillment of the scattering of His followers on the night of His arrest.

You are making this up, aren't you? No place in Rev. says 2/3 of the living die at Christ's return.

Jeremiah 31 is the gathering of Israel after Christ is on Earth to call them to a home that He is in control of. In that passage the land of the enemy can be shown to be death as the children being mentioned are the 2 and under infants that Herod had killed. Having that mean death rather than foreign Nations also changes certain things and some doctrines would fold completely.

You have a lot of work to do to try to prove that Jeremiah 31:31-34 didn't refer to the New Covenant Jesus made in his body and blood in the bread and the wine at the Last Supper. The earlier part of chapter 31 refers to the return of Israel from Babylonian exile. It had to happen in the course of God's plan for the people and to bring the Messiah into their Land.

The resurrection of Eze:37 and the river of Eze:47 are literal events and places once the time for those things arrives.

Ezekiel 37 was a symolic picture of the return of Israel from Babylonian captivity. Their restoration to their land, and the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple, AT THAT TIME was going to seem like a miraculous resurrection.

So while you have the right to say I'm wrong most arguments contain something a little more detailed than 'weird'. The only real difference is saying the 70 weeks is over in the time of Jesus and Revelation cannot use the last week of Daniel to support any end time doctrine time-line. As it is, the 42 months of the Beast and the 3 1/2 years of the two witnesses and the time, times, and a half of the last woman of Re:12 all run at the same time and they all end at the same time, the 7th trump.
Surely somebody has promoted that at sometime?

Nope, you are re-inventing the wheel. You need to explain what you mean by the '42 months of the beast. The 42 months is the prophecying of the two witnesses. The beast kills them, but the beast itself was not a 42 month entity.