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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Of course, I believe that God has purpose and goals, but that is not the subject of the thread. It is obvious that Tass and Jim will not agree, because they are rather extreme Dawkins atheists or atheist/agnostics. Based on Jim's history of his posts I most definitely consider him far more an atheist than agnostic.
    Or they are just following the logic of their atheism/materialism.

    You need to read the whole reference, and not a selective citation to support your agenda. Yes, SOME philosophers and scientists question the usefulness of teleological language, but the source describes options and different teleological views and language that are proposed by philosophers and scientists.
    Right, but the language is not useful, since it really does not describe natural forces. I wonder why you would even use teleological language when there really are no goals or purpose with the natural laws/forces that created everything.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Right, but the language is not useful, since it really does not describe natural forces. I wonder why you would even use teleological language when there really are no goals or purpose with the natural laws/forces that created everything.
      Based on the source I cited,some philosophers and scientists consider teleological language useful and they consider purpose and goals a part of this language, and yes you disagree, but disagreement does mean they are wrong.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Based on the source I cited,some philosophers and scientists consider teleological language useful and they consider purpose and goals a part of this language, and yes you disagree, but disagreement does mean they are wrong.
        And your agreement does not mean that they are right. But this is obvious - the natural laws/forces that created us had no goals or purpose.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          And your agreement does not mean that they are right. But this is obvious - the natural laws/forces that created us had no goals or purpose.
          Never claimed that they nor I are right. No, it is not obvious, nor can it be concluded that you are right that natural laws or forces do not result in natural goals and purposes.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Never claimed that they nor I are right. No, it is not obvious, nor can it be concluded that you are right that natural laws or forces do not result in natural goals and purposes.
            So the forces of nature had the goal or purpose of creating life on earth? Really? Besides this idea of teleology comes from Plato and Aristotle - how often have you told me that they were old hat!
            Last edited by seer; 03-13-2017, 10:30 AM.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              So the forces of nature had the goal or purpose of creating life on earth? Really? Besides this idea of teleology comes from Plato and Aristotle - how often have you told me that they were old hat!
              Well,yes they are old hat!
              I have no problem with that!

              Sometimes the are wise and right! . . . and sometimes they are wrong and out of date. Teleology has changed and diversified in concept since Plato and Aristotle.

              Really? Yes, it is a possible view of some philosophers and scientists as cited.

              In the naturalist philosophical view Natural Law and the nature of our physical existence did not Create life on earth. It is the natural result of the Laws and forces of nature. The purpose and goals are describe as a natural result of this.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-13-2017, 10:51 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                In the naturalist philosophical view Natural Law and the nature of our physical existence did not Create life on earth. It is the natural result of the Laws and forces of nature. The purpose and goals are describe as a natural result of this.
                What? So forces of nature had the did not have the goal or purpose of creating life on earth?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  What? So forces of nature had the did not have the goal or purpose of creating life on earth?
                  Natural Laws and forces of nature have possible 'purpose and goals' for the natural outcome and destiny of life and species, as referenced and defined by some philosophers and scientists.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Natural Laws and forces of nature have possible 'purpose and goals' for the natural outcome and destiny of life and species, as referenced and defined by some philosophers and scientists.
                    How do forces that intend nothing have a goal of creating life? It could have easily been that life was never created.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      How do forces that intend nothing have a goal of creating life? It could have easily been that life was never created.
                      All ready referenced a number of sources that describe the utilitarian teleology and teleology of natural processes by different philosophers and scientists. All you need to do is read the references. There is no further need for references.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        All ready referenced a number of sources that describe the utilitarian teleology and teleology of natural processes by different philosophers and scientists. All you need to do is read the references. There is no further need for references.
                        I'm asking you, not what philosophers and scientists who disagree on this subject say. So how do forces that intend nothing have a goal of creating life? It could have easily been that life was never created.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I'm asking you, not what philosophers and scientists who disagree on this subject say. So how do forces that intend nothing have a goal of creating life? It could have easily been that life was never created.
                          The substance of my answer is not a matter of disagreement, which is obvious, it is . . .

                          All ready referenced a number of sources that describe the utilitarian teleology and teleology of natural processes by different philosophers and scientists. All you need to do is read the references. There is no further need for references.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            The substance of my answer is not a matter of disagreement, which is obvious, it is . . .

                            All ready referenced a number of sources that describe the utilitarian teleology and teleology of natural processes by different philosophers and scientists. All you need to do is read the references. There is no further need for references.
                            Yes there is a disagreement whether you should even apply the idea of teleology to natural processes, that was in your link. So how do forces that intend nothing have a goal of creating life since there was no guarantee that life would have been created in the first place?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Yes there is a disagreement whether you should even apply the idea of teleology to natural processes, that was in your link. So how do forces that intend nothing have a goal of creating life since there was no guarantee that life would have been created in the first place?
                              All ready referenced a number of sources that describe the utilitarian teleology and teleology of natural processes by different philosophers and scientists. All you need to do is read the references. There is no further need for references, nor explanation.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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