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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    The consistent anti smoking campaigns have worked dramatically. Smoking, once commonplace, is no longer acceptable. There is no reason why the same sort of anti drugs campaign would not work as well. Prohibition never works and costs the community greatly with the loss of potential tax revenue and the expensive policing of mafia-style gang warfare.
    So you want to make it legal so you can talk people into not taking it by telling them how bad it is after telling them it is OK to take it because now it is legal?

    Riiight.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Tassman, Heroin is much more addictive than tobacco. It is actually physically addictive. It can cause physical withdrawal when you stop and can kill you instantly when you take it and when trying to withdraw from it. It puts you into a complete stupor for hours. It is nothing like tobacco. And making it legal would end up with so many overdoses and deaths that the cost in healthcare and lives would easily overwhelm any "profits" made on the lives you are ruining. Just because the government CAN make money off of the misery of getting people addicted to heroin, doesn't mean it should, right?
      No it’s not. “Research has shown that nicotine is just as addictive as heroin”.

      http://www.councilonchemicalabuse.or...vs-heroin.html

      So the rest of your argument is irrelevant.

      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      So you want to make it legal so you can talk people into not taking it by telling them how bad it is after telling them it is OK to take it because now it is legal?

      Riiight.
      Uh no! The trick is to make it legal (but discourage it's use) so as to do away with the organised crime that surrounds any form of prohibited substances. Think alcohol and Al Capone.
      Last edited by Tassman; 03-14-2017, 05:12 AM.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        No it’s not. “Research has shown that nicotine is just as addictive as heroin”.

        http://www.councilonchemicalabuse.or...vs-heroin.html
        that's just wrong. The addiction is not even the same. You don't go into physical withdrawal that makes you deathly ill when you stop smoking. Your body doesn't go into shock and tremors. At the worse you have a craving for a smoke and might be a bit fidgety. I used to smoke and quit. And I have seen someone come off of heroin. It is not the same addiction in the least.

        So the rest of your argument is irrelevant.
        no. yours is.


        Uh no! The trick is to make it legal (but discourage it's use) so as to do away with the organised crime that surrounds any form of prohibited substances. Think alcohol and Al Capone.
        You still are wanting to make something legal just so you can tell them that it is dangerous and not to take it. You can tell them that now, while it is illegal, and your words will mean more because you would not be a freaking hypocrite.

        You know what? Murder is a crime and much of it is committed by gangs and organized crime. We should make murder legal to get it out of the hands of organized crime, then discourage it's use.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          The addiction is not even the same. You don't go into physical withdrawal that makes you deathly ill when you stop smoking. Your body doesn't go into shock and tremors. At the worse you have a craving for a smoke and might be a bit fidgety. I used to smoke and quit. And I have seen someone come off of heroin. It is not the same addiction in the least.
          Wikipedia agrees with you. Their chart ranks drugs like this:

          You'll be pleased to see though that the factual accuracy of that article is disputed.

          Murder is a crime and much of it is committed by gangs and organized crime. We should make murder legal to get it out of the hands of organized crime, then discourage it's use.
          Many countries around the world found that alcohol prohibition worked pretty badly for them. It created a huge black market, gave rise to smugglers, fueled the mafia, and many many people engaged in drinking alcohol anyway despite the black market. So what's the difference between something like murder, where making it illegal seems to work well, versus something like alcohol use where making it illegal seemed to work badly? I think the answer is the large number of people who so strongly desired to do it that they were going to do it regardless of its legal status. Having a law that a huge proportion of the population disobeys, makes it a bad law. The same observation applies not only to alcohol, but to the other commonly-used drugs and also to things like prostitution.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Wikipedia agrees with you. Their chart ranks drugs like this:

            You'll be pleased to see though that the factual accuracy of that article is disputed.

            Many countries around the world found that alcohol prohibition worked pretty badly for them. It created a huge black market, gave rise to smugglers, fueled the mafia, and many many people engaged in drinking alcohol anyway despite the black market. So what's the difference between something like murder, where making it illegal seems to work well, versus something like alcohol use where making it illegal seemed to work badly? I think the answer is the large number of people who so strongly desired to do it that they were going to do it regardless of its legal status. Having a law that a huge proportion of the population disobeys, makes it a bad law. The same observation applies not only to alcohol, but to the other commonly-used drugs and also to things like prostitution.
            The difference is that people had been used to legal alcohol for thousands of years, then it was taken away from them. Not the same as Heroin at all. Yes, both did/do encourage illegal trade because people do find ways to get what they want. But making it legal won't stop or even slow the drug trade. There will still be a black market that seeks to undercut the legal trade, just like it does with marijuana in states where it is now legal.

            Legalizing it will increase heroin usage, which tassman then wants to discourage with ads. "Hi we are the government! We just legalized heroin for you to make it easier to get, but wait! don't use it because it is bad for you!" - yeah great plan.

            If you legalize it, they will use it even more. So if it is harmful, don't legalize it.
            Last edited by Sparko; 03-15-2017, 09:23 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              The difference is that people had been used to legal alcohol for thousands of years, then it was taken away from them. Not the same as Heroin at all. Yes, both did/do encourage illegal trade because people do find ways to get what they want. But making it legal won't stop or even slow the drug trade. There will still be a black market that seeks to undercut the legal trade, just like it does with marijuana in states where it is now legal.

              Legalizing it will increase heroin usage, which tassman then wants to discourage with ads. "Hi we are the government! We just legalized heroin for you to make it easier to get, but wait! don't use it because it is bad for you!" - yeah great plan.

              If you legalize it, they will use it even more. So if it is harmful, don't legalize it.
              A middle ground is to decriminalize it so that people caught with heroin will get fined, and/or be forced to go to rehab, instead of going to prison.
              Blog: Atheism and the City

              If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Thinker View Post
                A middle ground is to decriminalize it so that people caught with heroin will get fined, and/or be forced to go to rehab, instead of going to prison.
                generally the only ones who do go to prison are dealers and repeat offenders. a user might get a short jail time, and a lot of times they do get probation and rehab. They are more interested in getting the dealers off the street than the users. Or using the fact that they have possession to get gang members or prostitutes of the street.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Tassman, Heroin is much more addictive than tobacco. It is actually physically addictive. It can cause physical withdrawal when you stop and can kill you instantly when you take it and when trying to withdraw from it. It puts you into a complete stupor for hours. It is nothing like tobacco. And making it legal would end up with so many overdoses and deaths that the cost in healthcare and lives would easily overwhelm any "profits" made on the lives you are ruining. Just because the government CAN make money off of the misery of getting people addicted to heroin, doesn't mean it should, right?
                  Have you ever been in the hospital Sparko, for a surgery and had a drop of morphine? I was, following a harsh surgery when I was smaller. My mother has for her foot surgery. And people who have fractured hips are on morphine for months.

                  Do you know what the difference between what you got, or would get in such a circumstance, and heroin? Not much, except that what you got was a lot purer. Heroin is a worse, more messy version of that. But people, in general, don't turn into addicts after a hip replacement.

                  And in the Vietnam war, you had I think it was a third of all GI's addicted to Heroin while fighting in that war because it was easily available to them on the black markets there. Yet we didn't see an army of addicts and junkies returning, a significant fraction of them recovered quite fast.

                  I've always wondered about that, and what the difference was. Maybe the boomer generation was just blessed by God, but I think it has more to do with why people become addicts. Heroin by itself does create a physical dependency, but it's not significantly worse than other dependencies. I was on an old long discontinued anti-depressant once during my worst depression, and it created every bit as strong a withdrawal if I forgot to take it (nausea, lethargy, skin crawling, bloodshot eyes, vomiting, etc...). I got a long sermon by my doctor about the importance of sticking to the schedule, and what would happen if I didn't, and how to slowly ease out of the use of it over a period of a month if I wanted to discontinue.. but I could still power through those circumstances. That's my experience at least.

                  I think it has more to do with those who are addicted having really miserable lives. I mean there's a reason they're taking the drugs, to begin with, and that's probably what really makes it difficult to quit.

                  I don't see how throwing them in prison with other hardened criminals, shaming them, making sure it's even more difficult if not impossible to get a job when they get out, and/or shoot them accidentally is going to help them recover. Which is what the War on Drugs plans is.

                  Personally, I don't see what good the War on Drug has done at all. Seems like a colossal waste of money. Though it's a bit strange to me that conservatives are the ones defending it, despite them usually being more liberal about these sort of things "Get the government out of my personal life."
                  Last edited by Leonhard; 03-16-2017, 08:36 AM. Reason: grumble grumble typos

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                    I think its naďve to believe that if drugs were legalized, that money saved would automatically shift to anti-drug campaigns. Law enforcement would claim they need it for other tasks. Politicians would find different programs deserving of the money.
                    I agree, without this shift of money from the War on Drugs, to anti-drug campaigns, it'd be a futile gesture.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      Have you ever been in the hospital Sparko, for a surgery and had a drop of morphine? I was, following a harsh surgery when I was smaller. My mother has for her foot surgery. And people who have fractured hips are on morphine for months.

                      Do you know what the difference between what you got, or would get in such a circumstance, and heroin? Not much, except that what you got was a lot purer. Heroin is a worse, more messy version of that. But people, in general, don't turn into addicts after a hip replacement.
                      Um I recently had very major surgery and was on opiod pain killers for 3 months. And on IV Delaudid (hydromorphone) for a week in the hospital. The difference is that the dosages and times are tightly controlled in a clinical setting. Even so, I could see the attraction. Especially the Delaudid. But they made sure I was not physically addicted to it. If I had a higher dosage or more frequent and prolonged exposure to the delaudid, I would have become addicted. I could feel it.

                      Yeah Heroin is even worse and much stronger and addictive. Once you are addicted you can't even stop if you want to without help. Your body will go into withdrawal. And even a slightly wrong dose will kill you outright. There is absolutely no valid reason to legalize such drugs.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        I agree, without this shift of money from the War on Drugs, to anti-drug campaigns, it'd be a futile gesture.
                        Your country is pretty free about legalized drugs like Marijuana. Is Heroin legal there? Why or Why not?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Um I recently had very major surgery and was on opiod pain killers for 3 months. And on IV Delaudid (hydromorphone) for a week in the hospital.
                          I actually had to check this to make sure, but the US actually banned diamorphine for use as a pain relief in hospitals. It's not the same here, so we're pretty much given straight up medical-grade luxury heroin. But all these opiods are just varients of each other.

                          Didn't know this.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Your country is pretty free about legalized drugs like Marijuana. Is Heroin legal there? Why or Why not?
                            This is Denmark, not Amsterdam.

                            We haven't legalized pot, marijuana, hashish, skunk or wizard (all variations of the same cannabis substance). The police just aren't after it as much anymore. They're trying to focus on other problems, and if they do a drug raid, it's on a boat carrying a couple of tons worth of it. People growing it at home are almost never targetted.

                            Pot is illegal to import, purchase, sell and possession is limited to a small quantity (about a couple of joints worth per person). Heroin (diamorphine) has a special provision where addicts can go to the hospital, as part of a program to get out of addiction, where they can get a ration of medical grade diamorphine, through a clean needle, for free. It's been a highly successful program. Hospitals also have needle rooms used by such addicts where they can get clean needles for their drug use, even if they're shooting themselves with illegal substances. This latter thing was in an effort to avoid a spread of AIDS and was deemed an acceptable compromise as it had good success in that area.

                            Both programs are highly successful, but there's still a world of difference between hospitals helping drug addicts avoid getting sick from needle sharing, or giving them rations of diamorphine as part of a treatment program, and then straight up legalization in a world that won't offer you help in getting out of addiction. I'm not sure I'd like the latter.

                            As for marijuana, I wouldn't be against its legalization. It's already used a lot by the youths, and certainly by a large percentage of my classmates, and half of my family... it's in use. And at this point, I don't see any reason to keep it criminal.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              I actually had to check this to make sure, but the US actually banned diamorphine for use as a pain relief in hospitals. It's not the same here, so we're pretty much given straight up medical-grade luxury heroin. But all these opiods are just varients of each other.

                              Didn't know this.
                              they gave me oxycodone for pain management for about 3 months. it was a fairly low dose (5mg every 6 hours as needed) - I was careful nonetheless and only used it when really needed and then weaned myself off as soon as possible. I still have about 15 tablets left that I have not used and keep for emergency pain relief if needed. Not needed so far.

                              These drugs are great as long as used as prescribed and supervised by a physician, but unfettered access by anyone? No, it it way too strong of a temptation and extremely dangerous.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                they gave me oxycodone for pain management for about 3 months. it was a fairly low dose (5mg every 6 hours as needed) - I was careful nonetheless and only used it when really needed and then weaned myself off as soon as possible. I still have about 15 tablets left that I have not used and keep for emergency pain relief if needed. Not needed so far.
                                Glad it helped you, and that you got through the surgery fine. I recall something on Facebook about this, a prayer request. I certainly prayed for you back then.

                                These drugs are great as long as used as prescribed and supervised by a physician, but unfettered access by anyone? No, it it way too strong of a temptation and extremely dangerous.
                                The good old discussion of freedom vs safety. In this case, I believe it's reasonable to have consumer protection.

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