To those who assert Universal Salvation...

[nikolai_42]

...as coming from the scriptures...

My questions are these :

What do you say is the purpose of hell?

Is God's punishment ever purely retributive?

And if retributive, how can a man survive such punishment and ultimately be saved?

Please cite scripture wherever possible.

[barnasha]

May be helpful for you to consider how concept of "Hell" is a very loose one in the scriptures. There are actually different words in the language of Jesus and the Jews which we simply translate to 'hell'. The Christian view of Hell has evolved over time. It would be worth investigating its origins

[nikolai_42]

May be helpful for you to consider how concept of "Hell" is a very loose one in the scriptures. There are actually different words in the language of Jesus and the Jews which we simply translate to 'hell'. The Christian view of Hell has evolved over time. It would be worth investigating its origins

I am well familiar with many different views on hell, but my questions are directed to those who are willing to deal with the scriptures that treat of what is commonly referred to as hellfire. Alternatively, the Lake of Fire may be addressed. But whether or not one holds to a traditional or non-traditional view of hell, I am more interested in the views of those who hold universal salvation as they relate to punishment/vengeance/retribution/justice after death.

And for those that reject hellfire, let them respond to verses such as these :

Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29-30 (see Mark 9:43-47 for the passage directly referencing fires of hell)
Matthew 18:9
James 3:6 (the analogy being of fire, not of death)

Whether it is called hellfire, it is clearly a place of fiery judgment. So, again, I would ask those that believe in universal salvation to address after-death punishment/vengeance/retribution/justice. What is its purpose? Is it single in purpose? Is there any retribution (not merely restoration) involved? If so, what satisfies that retribution?

[Bernie]

What do you say is the purpose of hell?

To simultaneously destroy and refine. Hell is regeneration.

Is God's punishment ever purely retributive?

Yes....I believe God hates the raw material of sin....falsity or imperfection. Regarding individuals, He is never retributive but merciful. He blesses the indiividual He loves by destroying what ails him.

And if retributive, how can a man survive such punishment and ultimately be saved?

The strength of truth in Scripture lies principally in metaphor. God destroys not individuals but constituent parts of individuals. We destroy our flesh (substance) by our sin, He fragmentally destroys our evil (essence) and restores the false to true to save the soul. He provides lots of metaphoric references to this in the BIble. For example, in His dialog with Abram on the road to Sodom, He shows how He does this (Gen 18)--by separating out the unrighteous from the righteous. The city represents the body which perishes, the unrighteous and righteous living within represent the spirit of life within the body, which is a whole fragmented into true and false (good and evil) elements. In the story of Sodom, good and evil were separated and evil destroyed with the city. It's plastered all throughout the Bible, if we have eyes to see and ears to hear it. Same principle, over and over. Sheep and goats. Green tree, dry tree. Wheat and tares. Good and rotten figs, etc.

Same thing told in Exodus. The Hebrew nation represents a human individual. God leads(Red Sea parted), we happily follow till the going gets rought, then rebel. In Num 14:27-34 God outlines His plan of salvation for both Israel and the human race, by destroying inner evil (falsity) such that the whole is improved to a higher union with truth and God's will. Here's how it works: God destroys the evil, complaining elements within by natural circumstances....fire consumes some (Num 11:1), fiery serpents destorys some (21:4-6) and so forth. It's always the compainers, the unbelieving elements, that are destroyed.

As the “troublemakers” within Israel were cut off and destroyed, offspring were born in the process who did not retain their ancestor’s unbelief. As these ‘new additions’ to inner Israel sprang forth to replace those that perished, he was changed in the midst of his tribulation and after 40 years a new person with faith built of regenerative destruction was ready to enter the promised land. Faith had been established in the midst of destruction.

Please cite scripture wherever possible.

It's late, I'll be travelling the next few days and not be able to respond, but when I return I'd be happy to provide more Scripture references to support this if you want.

[Bernie]

I would ask those that believe in universal salvation to address after-death punishment/vengeance/retribution/justice. What is its purpose?

Sorry, missed this question earlier.

Hellfire works the same in all. In the believer who by weak exercise of will (mere assent) in time accepts truth, faith is created in hellfire (sanctification). Those who remain enemies of God to their death suffer the horrors of being made pure without mercy (Ezek 7:4, 9:10, Jer 11:11) in the lake of fire. God is sovereign. None escape His wrath, neither the believer in time nor the unbeliever in His fiery arms (lake of fire) on the other side. But in the end, He restores all to perfection, all in all, because ultimately His wrath is simultaneously His love and mercy.

[MichaelB]

To simultaneously destroy and refine. Hell is regeneration.

I beg to differ. Hell is divine justice revealed, as is the cross.

Yes....I believe God hates the raw material of sin....falsity or imperfection.

Why attempt to separate those who are called wicked in God's sight (Gen 13:13 for ex), from their sin? There is no such dichotomey in the text of scripture.

Regarding individuals, He is never retributive but merciful. He blesses the indiividual He loves by destroying what ails him.

No, God must provide justice to those who sin against Him, and that justice is absent of mercy:

Deut 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.

Deut 32:40-41 For I lift up my hand to heaven and swear, As I live forever, if I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand takes hold on judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries
and will repay those who hate me.

This notion of separating the sin from the sinner is founded on something other than the testimony of the bible. God judges sin by judging the sinner who is responsible for the sin. Besides, there is no merit to the sufferings of Hell that would net a person righteousness. Hell is not regenerative, but eternal destruction (2Thes 1:9).

[nikolai_42]

To simultaneously destroy and refine. Hell is regeneration.

If Hell is regeneration, why would Jesus warn men so severely to avoid it? In at least 3 places, He says it is better to pluck out an eye (or cut off a hand or foot) and enter LIFE maimed or blind, than to keep those parts and enter HELL with the body in tact.

1. If it is BETTER to cut off an appendage, than to enter hell, it is clear that Jesus is telling men to avoid hell at all costs.

2. Further, Jesus says it is better that one of those members should PERISH than the whole body to go into hell. If the member is perishing, and hell were purification, how is totally losing that member BETTER than having it purified?

3. If hell were purification and regeneration, why is it contrasted with LIFE and the Kingdom of God?

Yes....I believe God hates the raw material of sin....falsity or imperfection. Regarding individuals, He is never retributive but merciful. He blesses the indiividual He loves by destroying what ails him.

The strength of truth in Scripture lies principally in metaphor. God destroys not individuals but constituent parts of individuals. We destroy our flesh (substance) by our sin, He fragmentally destroys our evil (essence) and restores the false to true to save the soul. He provides lots of metaphoric references to this in the BIble. For example, in His dialog with Abram on the road to Sodom, He shows how He does this (Gen 18)--by separating out the unrighteous from the righteous. The city represents the body which perishes, the unrighteous and righteous living within represent the spirit of life within the body, which is a whole fragmented into true and false (good and evil) elements. In the story of Sodom, good and evil were separated and evil destroyed with the city. It's plastered all throughout the Bible, if we have eyes to see and ears to hear it. Same principle, over and over. Sheep and goats. Green tree, dry tree. Wheat and tares. Good and rotten figs, etc.

It's all well and good to say that the bible is metaphorical, but unless it is inconsistent, one cannot pick and choose how to see those metaphors. The example of Sodom and Gomorrha is clearly dealt with in Jude 1:7.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 1:7

Sodom and Gomorrha is an example of vengeance, not purification. And often overlooked is the fact that it speaks of judgment of the Last Day when the rebellious angels will be judged along with all the rest of humanity. Again, here vengeance is in view, not mercy or restoration. Vengeance.

And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
Micah 5:15

Vengeance in anger and fury....as emphatically does not have restoration or purification in view.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

"In flaming fire taking vengeance...." again, no warrant to assume restoration or purification. Vengeance is retribution, it is judgment of the worst order. It isn't discipline as of a son (which does have restoration and correction in view) but furious wrath upon the rebellious unbeliever.

Same thing told in Exodus. The Hebrew nation represents a human individual. God leads(Red Sea parted), we happily follow till the going gets rought, then rebel. In Num 14:27-34 God outlines His plan of salvation for both Israel and the human race, by destroying inner evil (falsity) such that the whole is improved to a higher union with truth and God's will. Here's how it works: God destroys the evil, complaining elements within by natural circumstances....fire consumes some (Num 11:1), fiery serpents destorys some (21:4-6) and so forth. It's always the compainers, the unbelieving elements, that are destroyed.

So if someone doesn't believe....they are purified??

As the “troublemakers” within Israel were cut off and destroyed, offspring were born in the process who did not retain their ancestor’s unbelief. As these ‘new additions’ to inner Israel sprang forth to replace those that perished, he was changed in the midst of his tribulation and after 40 years a new person with faith built of regenerative destruction was ready to enter the promised land. Faith had been established in the midst of destruction.

I can accept that judgment can bring forth repentance which can bring about renewal. But to take something that applies to a group of people (some destroyed and some saved) and to apply that to an individual where he is purified, is unwarranted. It is an assumption that is used to justify a desire (universal salvation).

It's late, I'll be travelling the next few days and not be able to respond, but when I return I'd be happy to provide more Scripture references to support this if you want.

I think it's curious that fire is mentioned several times, but the cross not once. There is nothing that appears to require the cross. Sure, it can be inserted - saying it is necessary - but it doesn't appear to add anything to the message. In other words, whether one says the cross is necessary or not (in the midst of all the talk of purification), no weight is added to the argument. However, take the fire away, and the whole thing starts to collapse in on itself (as seen by the assertion that an individual is purified in the same way Israel was judged - leading to the conclusion that an unbeliever is purified which leads to ultimate salvation). Central to it appears to be fire as purification. Contrarily, in scripture, if you take away the fire of purification (wherever it appears), little is changed, but if you take the cross away, the whole thing collapses.

[nikolai_42]

Sorry, missed this question earlier.

Hellfire works the same in all. In the believer who by weak exercise of will (mere assent) in time accepts truth, faith is created in hellfire (sanctification). Those who remain enemies of God to their death suffer the horrors of being made pure without mercy (Ezek 7:4, 9:10, Jer 11:11) in the lake of fire. God is sovereign. None escape His wrath, neither the believer in time nor the unbeliever in His fiery arms (lake of fire) on the other side. But in the end, He restores all to perfection, all in all, because ultimately His wrath is simultaneously His love and mercy.

Again, that underlined statement shows me that the cross is not necessary but hellfire is (in this view of universal salvation). Or else the cross is just to soften the blow of the fire...

And as for the assertion that none escape His wrath, that's not what Paul taught.

Most of Ephesians 2 covers this, but a couple of verses as highlights :

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:2-3

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ephesians 2:12

These speak of the condition of men before they are quickened in Christ. They are children of wrath because children of disobedience. They have no hope because without God. They are under wrath.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Ephesians 5:5-8

Children of light are NOT children of wrath. The wrath of God comes on the disobedient, not those in Christ.

[OneSizeFit]

May be helpful for you to consider how concept of "Hell" is a very loose one in the scriptures.

In the Quran it is pretty specific.

[barnasha]

Quran uses a cognate of one of the Hebrew words, Gehenna.
it also simply refers to 'the fire', and alludes to torment. Really the same as the Torah/bible, unsurprisingly

[OneSizeFit]

Quran uses a cognate of one of the Hebrew words, Gehenna.
it also simply refers to 'the fire', and alludes to torment. Really the same as the Torah/bible, unsurprisingly

The Torah is silent on Hell, no? I dont think Sheol matches up to the descriptions of Gehenna.

[barnasha]

The Torah is silent on Hell, no? I dont think Sheol matches up to the descriptions of Gehenna.

The torah mentions sheol and gehenna, gehenna is a hebrew word, the cognate in arabic is jahannam. regardless 'hell' seems to be used in the torah/bible/quran in a more vague sense than how it is used in the modern (christian) lexicon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Judaism

[nikolai_42]

The torah mentions sheol and gehenna, gehenna is a hebrew word, the cognate in arabic is jahannam. regardless 'hell' seems to be used in the torah/bible/quran in a more vague sense than how it is used in the modern (christian) lexicon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Judaism

To the point that alternate sources have varying interpretations - and to OneSize's implication that torture in hell is more fitting of a Muslim belief - I would point out that Zoroastrianism believes basically what Bernie stated (and many who hold Universal Salvation believe). From one of the links off of the wikipedia page referenced :

At the end of the age Ahura Mazda will wipe out every trace of the evil work of Angra Mainyu. The souls from hell will be brought up and purified and will join the resurrected souls of the righteous and the world will enter a new cycle of perfection where no one will grow old or decay and Ahura Mazda will reign supreme.

{From An Introduction to Zoroastrianism}

My point being, if we can say that torment in hell is characteristically Muslim, then Universal Salvation (of the form here mentioned) can be said to be characteristically Zoroastrian.

[OneSizeFit]

To the point that alternate sources have varying interpretations - and to OneSize's implication that torture in hell is more fitting of a Muslim belief - I would point out that Zoroastrianism believes basically what Bernie stated (and many who hold Universal Salvation believe). From one of the links off of the wikipedia page referenced :


{From An Introduction to Zoroastrianism}

My point being, if we can say that torment in hell is characteristically Muslim, then Universal Salvation (of the form here mentioned) can be said to be characteristically Zoroastrian.

i was pointing out the Quran's view on Hell is in accordance with Christianity. I believe the Quran also states every man is destined for hell for purification. Even the righteous.

[nikolai_42]

i was pointing out the Quran's view on Hell is in accordance with Christianity. I believe the Quran also states every man is destined for hell for purification. Even the righteous.

My apologies. I misunderstood that. But even so, the Zoroastrian connection still holds insofar as hell is for purification.

EDIT : Note that Zoroastrianism appears to have all going through hell and the righteous being purified by it while the wicked perish or are punished. The point being that the fire purifies after death.