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Thread: Can The Atheist Do Good?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Not in the sense that Adam was the first human, nor Adam and Eve were the fault of the Fall and Original Sin. He was manifestation of God ONLY for the beginning of the Adamic cycle. There were more cycles of Revelation prior to Adam. Adam is a title in the Baha'i Faith for the First Manifestation of God for each cycle of Manifestions of God.
    Actually Shuny, Adam was the father of humankind, and through him, his physical life, we receive our "imperfections." And according to your religion Adam was a special creation not born from a previous human being or species. No matter what cycle went before this is what your religion teaches.

    Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position. http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/S...=highlight#gr8
    Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection. http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/S...=highlight#gr2
    A great man is a great man, whether born of a human father or not. If being without a father is a virtue, Adam is greater and more excellent than all the Prophets and Messengers, for He had neither father nor mother. That which causes honor and greatness is the splendor and bounty of the divine perfections. The sun is born from substance and form, which can be compared to father and mother, and it is absolute perfection; but the darkness has neither substance nor form, neither father nor mother, and it is absolute imperfection. The substance of Adam’s physical life was earth, but the substance of Abraham was pure sperm; it is certain that the pure and chaste sperm is superior to earth. http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/S...=highlight#gr1


    So we inherent our "imperfections" from Adam, and Adam was created without father or mother.
    Last edited by seer; 03-20-2017 at 10:03 PM.
    "The better the society, the less law there will be. In heaven there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be. In hell there will be nothing but law, and will be meticulously observed.” Grant Gilmore

  2. #152
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Actually Shuny, Adam was the father of humankind, and through him, his physical life, we receive our "imperfections." And according to your religion Adam was a special creation not born from a previous human being or species. No matter what cycle went before this is what your religion teaches.








    So we inherent our "imperfections" from Adam, and Adam was created without father or mother.
    No, we inherent our imperfections from the nature of being fallible human with a spiritual nature from the Adam of every cycle. Adam is believed to be Created spiritually Divine with a fallible human nature within the world of existing humans from previous cycles of Revelation. Not physically the first human, because the Adamic cylce was on of may cycles of Revelation in humanity.

    Odd line of 'off topic' line of questions not even the subject of the thread.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-20-2017 at 10:21 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #153
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No, we inherent our imperfections from the nature of being fallible human with a spiritual nature from the Adam of every cycle. Adam is believed to be Created spiritually Divine with a fallible human nature within the world of existing humans from previous cycles of Revelation. Not physically the first human, because the Adamic cylce was on of may cycles of Revelation in humanity.
    That is false Shuny, Adam did not have a father or mother, please give your reference that Adam was created from previous humans. And as your faith teaches our physical life, with its imperfections, was inherited from Adam. You can not twist your way out of this.

    Odd line of 'off topic' line of questions not even the subject of the thread.
    It is my thread, I can do as I please.
    "The better the society, the less law there will be. In heaven there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be. In hell there will be nothing but law, and will be meticulously observed.” Grant Gilmore

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Actually Shuny, Adam was the father of humankind, and through him, his physical life, we receive our "imperfections." And according to your religion Adam was a special creation not born from a previous human being or species. No matter what cycle went before this is what your religion teaches.
    Seer thats ridiculous. To say that through Adam we got our imperfections, is only to argue that we got our imperfections from Adams creator, because obviously Adam sinned, Adam was already imperfect, so the buck can't stop with Adam, his imperfection was his nature, and his nature was not of his own making, it was created. So the buck, the cause of our imperfect natures, would stop with the creator, or maker of Adam, not with Adam himself.







    So we inherent our "imperfections" from Adam, and Adam was created without father or mother.
    As above. For one thing, to believe that is childish, but it also doesn't make sense. Adam can't be said to be the cause of his own imperfect nature, and if all of human kind inherited an imperfect nature, then they inherited it from the creator of Adam, not from Adam himself.

    The above is assuming there is a God of course, which i see no reason to believe there is one, in which case the cause of our nature, is nature itself.
    Last edited by JimL; 03-21-2017 at 12:09 AM.

  5. #155
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So we inherent our "imperfections" from Adam, and Adam was created without father or mother.
    So, Adam is to blame for everything that is wrong with us?

    Or are you suggesting, with those scare quotes, that there is nothing really wrong with us?

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Seer thats ridiculous. To say that through Adam we got our imperfections, is only to argue that we got our imperfections from Adams creator, because obviously Adam sinned, Adam was already imperfect, so the buck can't stop with Adam, his imperfection was his nature, and his nature was not of his own making, it was created. So the buck, the cause of our imperfect natures, would stop with the creator, or maker of Adam, not with Adam himself.
    Jim, that is what the Bahai's teach. Though it is not far from my view.
    "The better the society, the less law there will be. In heaven there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be. In hell there will be nothing but law, and will be meticulously observed.” Grant Gilmore

  7. #157
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    So, Adam is to blame for everything that is wrong with us?

    Or are you suggesting, with those scare quotes, that there is nothing really wrong with us?
    No, I'm just showing Shuny what his religion actually teaches.
    "The better the society, the less law there will be. In heaven there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be. In hell there will be nothing but law, and will be meticulously observed.” Grant Gilmore

  8. #158
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Jim, that is what the Bahai's teach. Though it is not far from my view.
    NO it is NOT! Your selective biased citing of Baha'i scripture does not reflect the teaching of the Baha'i Faith. It only reflects your warped sense of bias against those who believe differently.
    The fallible nature of being human and the Divine nature of the soul is true for the nature of being human in all the cyclic Revelations of God. There is no concept of fault of the Fall and Original Sin blaming Adam and Eve in the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. The only thing that Adam is attributed to the first Revelation of the Adamic cycle and Creation nature of the human nature as fallible and spiritually Divine for that cycle.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-21-2017 at 12:25 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    NO it is NOT! Your selective biased citing of Baha'i scripture does not reflect the teaching of the Baha'i Faith. It only reflects your warped sense of bias against those who believe differently.
    The fallible nature of being human and the Divine nature of the soul is true for the nature of being human in all the cyclic Revelations of God. There is no concept of fault of the Fall and Original Sin blaming Adam and Eve in the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. The only thing that Adam is attributed to the first Revelation of the Adamic cycle and Creation nature of the human nature as fallible and spiritually Divine for that cycle.
    Shuny, I just quoted from your teachings:

    For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam

    and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity.

    Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam
    But I'm glad we agree that all humanity are descended from one man, Adam, who live about 6000 years ago and was created without a father or mother.
    "The better the society, the less law there will be. In heaven there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be. In hell there will be nothing but law, and will be meticulously observed.” Grant Gilmore

  10. #160
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Shuny, I just quoted from your teachings:
    Again your selective hostile citation without understanding context has no meaning.

    But I'm glad we agree that all humanity are descended from one man, Adam, who live about 6000 years ago and was created without a father or mother.
    No I do not agree. First in the Baha'i Faith Adam was only the first Manifestation Creation of God and no all humanity did descend form Adam, Humanity has been around for many cycles of Revelation extending back Millennia into the past. The Universal Cycle of Humanity is far older and longer then the Adamic Cycle.

    You are not understanding of what it means to the 'Father' of humanity, and the Manifestation of God for the beginning a cycle of Revelation, because humanity had been living for millennia prior to Adam. It is true that all the Manifestations of God descended from Adam in the Baha'i teaching. All humanity can share the blood lineage of Adam as well as all of humanity that existed at the time. By the scripture of the Baha'i Faith Adam is not the first human.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-21-2017 at 06:34 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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