Can The Atheist Do Good?

[shunyadragon]

It should be noted that `Abdu'l-Bahá, who Baha'is regard as inerrant and infallible, also rejected Darwinian evolution, and stated things like,

"We have now come to the question of the modification of species and of organic development—that is to say, to the point of inquiring whether man’s descent is from the animal.
This theory has found credence in the minds of some European philosophers, and it is now very difficult to make its falseness understood, but in the future it will become evident and clear, and the European philosophers will themselves realize its untruth. For, verily, it is an evident error."

I have addressed this many times 'infalibility' involved the scriptures and spiritual teachings in the volumes such as the Katabi-Aqdas, and not commentary on the knowledge of the science of the time.

[seer]

No you did not! The context includes volumes of Baha'i Writings, and not just a few selective quotes, which I explained.

Shuny, your faith teaches that Adam is the father of MAN, man's physical nature. If man does not include all mankind then what does it include, who is excluded from Adam's physical nature? And where are your references showing that descendants from the previous cycle still exist today? That Adam is not our only father?

[shunyadragon]

Shuny, your faith teaches that Adam is the father of MAN, man's physical nature. If man does not include all mankind then what does it include, who is excluded from Adam's physical nature? And where are your references showing that descendants from the previous cycle still exist today? That Adam is not our only father?

Already answered with references.

[shunyadragon]

It should be noted that `Abdu'l-Bahá, who Baha'is regard as inerrant and infallible, also rejected Darwinian evolution, and stated things like,

"We have now come to the question of the modification of species and of organic development—that is to say, to the point of inquiring whether man’s descent is from the animal.
This theory has found credence in the minds of some European philosophers, and it is now very difficult to make its falseness understood, but in the future it will become evident and clear, and the European philosophers will themselves realize its untruth. For, verily, it is an evident error."

As per numerous previous threads over many years:

Source: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BNE/bne-163.html

Bahá’u’lláh teaches that the universe is without beginning in time. It is a perpetual emanation from the Great First Cause. The Creator always had His creation and always will have. Worlds and systems may come and go, but the [greater cosmos] universe remains. All things that undergo composition, in time undergo decomposition, but the component elements remain. The creation of a world, a daisy or a human body is not “making something out of nothing”; it is rather a bringing together of elements which before were scattered, a making visible of something which before was hidden. By and by the elements will again be scattered, the form will disappear, but nothing is really lost or annihilated; ever new combinations and forms arise from the ruins of the old. Bahá’u’lláh confirms the scientists who claim, not six thousand, but millions and billions of years for the history of the earth’s creation. The evolution theory does not deny creative power. It only tries to describe the method of its manifestation; and the wonderful story of the material universe which the astronomer, the geologist, the physicist and the biologist are gradually unfolding to our gaze is, rightly appreciated, far more capable of evoking the deepest reverence and worship than the crude and bald account of creation given in the Hebrew Scriptures.

This unique foundation principle is described in the following by Abdul'baha. One question that is answered here specifically is; 'When are the Baha'i Writings literal and do not change, and how are the commentary about our physical existence in the writings considered. The moral laws of the Baha'i writings are logically correct, immutable and will not change.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Paris Talks, Pages 141-146: gr16

"Now, all questions of morality contained in the spiritual, immutable law of every religion are logically right. If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism."

Paris Talks, Pages 141-146: gr16

© Copyright Original Source

It is the spiritual laws concerning moral teaching that are immutable and absolute, not commentary on te scientific knowledge of the time.

Source: Abul-Baha

Harmony of Science and Religion

Another cause of dissension and disagreement is the fact that religion has been pronounced at variance with science. Between scientists and the followers of religion there has always been controversy and strife for the reason that the latter have proclaimed religion superior in authority to science and considered scientific announcement opposed to the teachings of religion. Baha'u'llah declared that religion is in complete harmony with science and reason. If religious belief and doctrine is at variance with reason, it proceeds from the limited mind of man and not from God; therefore, it is unworthy of belief and not deserving of attention; the heart finds no rest in it, and real faith is impossible. How can man believe that which he knows to be opposed to reason? Is this possible? Can the heart accept that which reason denies? Reason is the first faculty of man, and the religion of God is in harmony with it. Baha'u'llah has removed this form of dissension and discord from among mankind and reconciled science . . .

© Copyright Original Source

Source: The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 228-235: gr9

Among other principles of Baha'u'llah's teachings was the harmony of science and religion. Religion must stand the analysis of reason. It must agree with scientific fact and proof so that science will sanction religion and religion fortify science. Both are indissolubly welded and joined in reality. If statements and teachings of religion are found to be unreasonable and contrary to science, they are outcomes of superstition and imagination. . .The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 172-176: gr9

© Copyright Original Source

[seer]

Already answered with references.

That is an out right lie - where?

[Adrift]

As per numerous previous threads over many years:

Source: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BNE/bne-163.html

Bahá’u’lláh teaches that the universe is without beginning in time. It is a perpetual emanation from the Great First Cause. The Creator always had His creation and always will have. Worlds and systems may come and go, but the [greater cosmos] universe remains. All things that undergo composition, in time undergo decomposition, but the component elements remain. The creation of a world, a daisy or a human body is not “making something out of nothing”; it is rather a bringing together of elements which before were scattered, a making visible of something which before was hidden. By and by the elements will again be scattered, the form will disappear, but nothing is really lost or annihilated; ever new combinations and forms arise from the ruins of the old. Bahá’u’lláh confirms the scientists who claim, not six thousand, but millions and billions of years for the history of the earth’s creation. The evolution theory does not deny creative power. It only tries to describe the method of its manifestation; and the wonderful story of the material universe which the astronomer, the geologist, the physicist and the biologist are gradually unfolding to our gaze is, rightly appreciated, far more capable of evoking the deepest reverence and worship than the crude and bald account of creation given in the Hebrew Scriptures.

This unique foundation principle is described in the following by Abdul'baha. One question that is answered here specifically is; 'When are the Baha'i Writings literal and do not change, and how are the commentary about our physical existence in the writings considered. The moral laws of the Baha'i writings are logically correct, immutable and will not change.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Paris Talks, Pages 141-146: gr16

"Now, all questions of morality contained in the spiritual, immutable law of every religion are logically right. If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism."

Paris Talks, Pages 141-146: gr16

© Copyright Original Source

It is the spiritual laws concerning moral teaching that are immutable and absolute, not commentary on te scientific knowledge of the time.

Source: Abul-Baha

Harmony of Science and Religion

Another cause of dissension and disagreement is the fact that religion has been pronounced at variance with science. Between scientists and the followers of religion there has always been controversy and strife for the reason that the latter have proclaimed religion superior in authority to science and considered scientific announcement opposed to the teachings of religion. Baha'u'llah declared that religion is in complete harmony with science and reason. If religious belief and doctrine is at variance with reason, it proceeds from the limited mind of man and not from God; therefore, it is unworthy of belief and not deserving of attention; the heart finds no rest in it, and real faith is impossible. How can man believe that which he knows to be opposed to reason? Is this possible? Can the heart accept that which reason denies? Reason is the first faculty of man, and the religion of God is in harmony with it. Baha'u'llah has removed this form of dissension and discord from among mankind and reconciled science . . .

© Copyright Original Source

Source: The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 228-235: gr9

Among other principles of Baha'u'llah's teachings was the harmony of science and religion. Religion must stand the analysis of reason. It must agree with scientific fact and proof so that science will sanction religion and religion fortify science. Both are indissolubly welded and joined in reality. If statements and teachings of religion are found to be unreasonable and contrary to science, they are outcomes of superstition and imagination. . .The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 172-176: gr9

© Copyright Original Source

I have no idea what you think all of these random citations prove. Not more than a couple weeks or so, I had to teach you that the Universal House of Justice declared that everything 'Abdu'l-Bahá said was infallible. Remember? You tried to argue against that by citing bahai.org, and then stopped replying after I embarrassed you by showing you that your very own source argued against your claim. We all had a good chuckle over it. I know you had to have remembered that.

[Tassman]

No, I'm just showing Shuny what his religion actually teaches.

Don't you think it's a tad bizarre that a non Baha'i like you is lecturing a committed practitioner of that faith about what he should believe. Especially someone like you, who is notorious for misleading quote mining.

[shunyadragon]

I have no idea what you think all of these random citations prove. Not more than a couple weeks or so, I had to teach you that the Universal House of Justice declared that everything 'Abdu'l-Bahá said was infallible. Remember? You tried to argue against that by citing bahai.org, and then stopped replying after I embarrassed you by showing you that your very own source argued against your claim. We all had a good chuckle over it. I know you had to have remembered that.

Everything 'Abdu'l-baha writes (says) is infallible concerning the Laws, and spiritual teachings of the Baha'i Faith including the interpretation of these scriptures, like seer, you are a specialist in misleading dishonest, and embarrassing, quote mining without consider the whole of scriptures and guidance, which I cited concerning the specific guidance and beliefs concerning the harmony of science and religion.

You do much better as an anal retentive grammarian.

[shunyadragon]

That is an out right lie - where?

It is quite typical that you divert the topic of the thread, because you cannot respond to coherent competent argument on topic, and chose, like Adrift, in a personal biased, selective dishonest personal attack 'OFF TOPIC of the thread in frustration of not being able to present a reasonable logical and coherent argument.

[Adrift]

Everything 'Abdu'l-baha writes (says) is infallible concerning the Laws, and spiritual teachings of the Baha'i Faith including the interpretation of these scriptures,

shunya, it goes well beyond that, and you know it. I caught you blundering through this same lie a few weeks ago using your own sources. Here it is again,

Source:

There is nothing in the Writings that would lead us to the conclusion that what Shoghi Effendi says about himself concerning statements on subjects not directly related to the Faith also applies to 'Abdu'l-Bahá. Instead we have assertions which indicate that 'Abdu'l-Bahá's position in the Faith is one for which we find "no parallel" in past Dispensations. For example, Bahá'u'lláh, in addition to His reference to the Centre of His Covenant as the "Mystery of God", states that 'Abdu'l-Bahá should be regarded as God's "exalted Handiwork" and "a Word which God hath adorned with the ornament of His Own Self, and made it sovereign over the earth and all that there is therein..." And from Shoghi Effendi we have the incontrovertible statement that the Guardian of the Faith while "overshadowed" by the "protection'' of Bahá'u'lláh and of the Bab, "remains essentially human", whereas in respect of 'Abdu'l-Bahá Shoghi Effendi categorically states that "in the person of 'Abdu'l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized.

© Copyright Original Source

Here's the thread where you totally embarrassed yourself if you don't remember.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post422978

like seer, you are a specialist in misleading dishonest, and embarrassing, quote mining without consider the whole of scriptures and guidance, which I cited concerning the specific guidance and beliefs concerning the harmony of science and religion.

You do much better as an anal retentive grammarian.

shunya, you're far too old to act so childish. Don't get all nasty with everyone else when you're called on your dishonesty, and just cause you can't help make yourself look ridiculous every time you post.

[Tassman]

shunya, you're far too old to act so childish. Don't get all nasty with everyone else when you're called on your dishonesty, and just cause you can't help make yourself look ridiculous every time you post.

Get a mirror.

[Adrift]

Get a mirror.

Tassman, you'd really be better served defending some other group of people, cause you're doing yourself no favors defending the indefensible.

[seer]

It is quite typical that you divert the topic of the thread, because you cannot respond to coherent competent argument on topic, and chose, like Adrift, in a personal biased, selective dishonest personal attack 'OFF TOPIC of the thread in frustration of not being able to present a reasonable logical and coherent argument.

You are lying again Shuny, I went off topic responding to you when you said:

I believe Tassman's view is justified, because Venema's summary indeed reflects the overwhelming consensus of science concerning the origin of the human species. Yes, the article presents different views, such as the Theistic Evolutionist, but the TE would classically agree with Venema's summary if the TE considers his/her view compatible with science.

Sparko's conclusion that there must have been a 'first person' is an incorrect assumption based on the science of evolution. The evolution of all species result in the genetic drift and isolation of groups or populations of individuals, and not one or two individuals.

But according to your own religion all of mankind, all men living today have ONE FATHER, Adam. And we are distinct from any creatures or even humans that went before (from your so called previous cycles). So your own religion disagrees with "science."

[shunyadragon]

You are lying again Shuny, I went off topic responding to you when you said:



But according to your own religion all of mankind, all men living today have ONE FATHER, Adam. And we are distinct from any creatures or even humans that went before (from your so called previous cycles). So your own religion disagrees with "science."

False, dishonest, and biased selective and interpretation of the Bahai writings without considering the whole of scripture and the references I gave.

As per numerous previous threads over many years:

Source: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BNE/bne-163.html


Bahá’u’lláh teaches that the universe is without beginning in time. It is a perpetual emanation from the Great First Cause. The Creator always had His creation and always will have. Worlds and systems may come and go, but the [greater cosmos] universe remains. All things that undergo composition, in time undergo decomposition, but the component elements remain. The creation of a world, a daisy or a human body is not “making something out of nothing”; it is rather a bringing together of elements which before were scattered, a making visible of something which before was hidden. By and by the elements will again be scattered, the form will disappear, but nothing is really lost or annihilated; ever new combinations and forms arise from the ruins of the old. Bahá’u’lláh confirms the scientists who claim, not six thousand, but millions and billions of years for the history of the earth’s creation. The evolution theory does not deny creative power. It only tries to describe the method of its manifestation; and the wonderful story of the material universe which the astronomer, the geologist, the physicist and the biologist are gradually unfolding to our gaze is, rightly appreciated, far more capable of evoking the deepest reverence and worship than the crude and bald account of creation given in the Hebrew Scriptures.

This unique foundation principle is described in the following by Abdul'baha. One question that is answered here specifically is; 'When are the Baha'i Writings literal and do not change, and how are the commentary about our physical existence in the writings considered. The moral laws of the Baha'i writings are logically correct, immutable and will not change.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Paris Talks, Pages 141-146: gr16

"Now, all questions of morality contained in the spiritual, immutable law of every religion are logically right. If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism."

Paris Talks, Pages 141-146: gr16

© Copyright Original Source

It is the spiritual laws concerning moral teaching that are immutable and absolute, not commentary on te scientific knowledge of the time.

Source: Abul-Baha

Harmony of Science and Religion

Another cause of dissension and disagreement is the fact that religion has been pronounced at variance with science. Between scientists and the followers of religion there has always been controversy and strife for the reason that the latter have proclaimed religion superior in authority to science and considered scientific announcement opposed to the teachings of religion. Baha'u'llah declared that religion is in complete harmony with science and reason. If religious belief and doctrine is at variance with reason, it proceeds from the limited mind of man and not from God; therefore, it is unworthy of belief and not deserving of attention; the heart finds no rest in it, and real faith is impossible. How can man believe that which he knows to be opposed to reason? Is this possible? Can the heart accept that which reason denies? Reason is the first faculty of man, and the religion of God is in harmony with it. Baha'u'llah has removed this form of dissension and discord from among mankind and reconciled science . . .

© Copyright Original Source

Source: The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 228-235: gr9


Among other principles of Baha'u'llah's teachings was the harmony of science and religion. Religion must stand the analysis of reason. It must agree with scientific fact and proof so that science will sanction religion and religion fortify science. Both are indissolubly welded and joined in reality. If statements and teachings of religion are found to be unreasonable and contrary to science, they are outcomes of superstition and imagination. . .The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 172-176: gr9

© Copyright Original Source
.

[Sparko]

Don't you think it's a tad bizarre that a non Baha'i like you is lecturing a committed practitioner of that faith about what he should believe. Especially someone like you, who is notorious for misleading quote mining.

You really should become a comedian.