Can The Atheist Do Good?

[Meh Gerbil]

Faith is pretending to know something – that is why it is fundamentally dishonest. Religions run fake merit systems and teach bad or simply wrong ideas. It does these things in plain sight; some of it very brash and exploitative. We should move towards making all religions disreputable as quickly as possible because it matters what we think is good, not what ancient dogmas say is good.

I have to admit I've never read that definition of faith before.

Also, as you don't have a comprehensive knowledge of all religions then your call for the extermination of all religions, most sight unseen, means you're actually putting faith in your unproven idea that all religions are bad.

You may want to avoid knocking faith in the same post where you invoke a call to action based upon it.

[Trout]

Faith is pretending to know something – that is why it is fundamentally dishonest.

Is it fundamentally dishonest to press buttons in an elevator having faith you'll reach the second floor? Oh ... wait ....

[JimL]

So you believe my apparent faith is a question of honesty?

Actually yes. I don't think that you are actually capable of being honest with yourself because that is what religion does to one. Once indoctrinated, believers are willing to believe and defend just about anything.

[Meh Gerbil]

Actually yes. I don't think that you are actually capable of being honest with yourself because that is what religion does to one. Once indoctrinated, believers are willing to believe and defend just about anything.

I think this is offensive and flat out wrong; however, I do find the honesty refreshing.

[Darth Executor]

It's not honesty, it's projection. That description fits JimL better than just about every other atheist on this board.

[Meh Gerbil]

It's not honesty, it's projection. That description fits JimL better than just about every other atheist on this board.

Bah humbug.
BTW, your posts are 10X better with that avatar.

[Tassman]

Actually yes. I don't think that you are actually capable of being honest with yourself because that is what religion does to one. Once indoctrinated, believers are willing to believe and defend just about anything.

Exactly! It's delusional, the maintaining of fixed false beliefs regardless of the evidence presented against such beliefs.

[Darth Executor]

Although Tassman comes pretty close.

[Doug Shaver]

If God is the standard of goodness, and if He is the focus, and the decider of what is good or evil, then how could the atheist do anything truly good?

He couldn't. But, "If A then B" is irrelevant is A unproved.

[sylas]

A few thoughts...

First: gosh, don't some folks work awful hard at not understanding views they don't share.... even if they have nothing much else in common.

Second: bit of a quick shift from "do anything truly good" in the OP to "are good" in following discussion. I think one can claim to have done something truly good (thus engaging the question in the OP) without claiming to "be good" in general. I don't think one has to be a particularly "good person" to be able to do something truly good. And that's, uh, good.

Third: (and helping with the confusion I observed as the second point) a useful distinction was introduced between "doing good" and "being righteous".

... though the usefulness is diminished somewhat by the problem that I don't get what it would mean to "be righteous".

Whatever the term means, when I meet folks who explicitly claim to "be righteous", I get cautious... because whatever that actually means, the people who make it an explicit claim for themselves are all too often not folks I'd trust to be doing good things as a general rule.

Good evening all -- sylas

[Tassman]

Scripture says that anything not done in faith is sin, that we should glorify God with all our acts, and that without faith it is impossible to please God. If God is the standard of goodness, and if He is the focus, and the decider of what is good or evil, then how could the atheist do anything truly good?

The key word here is "IF". And given that there is no substantive evidence for God then your proposition is merely an unverified hypothesis.

[Leonhard]

Scripture says that anything not done in faith is sin, that we should glorify God with all our acts, and that without faith it is impossible to please God. If God is the standard of goodness, and if He is the focus, and the decider of what is good or evil, then how could the atheist do anything truly good?

All people can do good in a natural sense. There are actions that are proper according to a person's being. You could be good at something, a good flute player. You could treat your child well, according to the way children ought to be treated. You can be neighborly, a skilled craftsman, etc...

And all these things are good according to what they are, but they belong exclusively to the natural world.

St. Paul, in his entire letter, talks a lot about what Faith means. When it comes to St. Paul you have to be careful with simple plucking quotes and ignoring the rest of what he writes. He writes on the notion of faith in Chapter One.

'16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith." '

Especially read the end of Chapter 3, all of 4 and some of 5. He goes into great detail about how a man becomes justified before God, and it's clear this is the meaning he talks about.

A person, even if he be ever so otherwise a naturally virtuous and good person, if he doesn't have the right relationship with God it's all for naught, nothing he does is then pleasing to God in any way, and can't be counted as works of faith. Without the Faith, no one can be justified.

But that's not to say that it's not good for an atheist to donate money and be an all around good guy. It would still be good, laudable and worthy of commendation.

But it wouldn't get the atheist into Heaven.

[Trout]

A few thoughts...
I don't think one has to be a particularly "good person" to be able to do something truly good. And that's, uh, good.

I believe I understand the sentiment here, friend.

But from a purely naturalistic schema, the concept of doing something "truly good" confuses me.

Say if I w're to run into a burning building to save a baby ... what I've in effect done is help perpetuate the most egregious invasive species imaginable. Not to mention interfering with natural selection, helping craft a species with less respect for danger.

Our let's say I came up with a cure for cancer. Wouldn't that be an incorrect value judgment on cancer? Me imagining my existence superior to that of cancer? Even though the human species is a horrible blight on the earth?

Know what I'm saying?

Perhaps you could explain what a "truly good" act looks like from a naturalistic perspective.

[Adrift]

How about scripture is a bunch of idiocies, hallucinations, and lies written by largely uneducated morons in the bronze age who believed in invisible sky deities, and that anyone who arbitrarily selects one of the many such books of crazed ancient writings to believe today shows themselves to be a silly person by doing so

Amusing to see you shed every last pretense of decorum and dispassionate behavior that you were so anxious to see others commit to. Calling people dumbass, and idiot, and using tired anti-theist tropes like "bronze age morons" and "invisible sky fairy". I mean, not like any of us were fooled by your past pretense, but it's entertaining to see show your true colors after your moral grandstanding.

[seer]

Amusing to see you shed every last pretense of decorum and dispassionate behavior that you were so anxious to see others commit to. Calling people dumbass, and idiot, and using tired anti-theist tropes like "bronze age morons" and "invisible sky fairy". I mean, not like any of us were fooled by your past pretense, but it's entertaining to see show your true colors after your moral grandstanding.

Yes, I did seem to trigger him... my bad...