God is "plural" in the Qu'ran?

[mitzi]

My point was, in the Quran, in the Cow Surah, Allah commands the Angels to worship Adam, but according to Islamic doctrine Iblis/Satan was a Jinn, so why was he punished for not prostrating to Adam? Additionally, Iblis then complains that Allah deceived him, hence he will deceive men in turn...strange.

What's also odd in the same Surah, is that is supposed to be the angel Gabriel speaking, saying "we commanded the angels", so then there is a division of angels that are one with Allah, and another that have some sort of free will?

"Some suggest that Samyaza is most likely another name for Satan (Heb: 'the adversary'), who was originally an entity created in the service of God; he was the caretaker of God's throne, but later fell from the heavens because of his pride according to some Abrahamic traditions. Jesus states that he saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning in Luke 10:18. The name Samyaza could be read as, 'infamous rebellion', rather fitting since he was originally the most powerful angel in heaven but went on to rebel against God.

Others say that Samyaza should not be mistaken for another name for Satan, who some believe was "cast out" from the heavens because of his refusal to worship Man, the newly created image of God, as written in the Qur'an (7:11) and the pseudepigraphical Gospel of Bartholomew (IV:54-56). [2] This interpretation points to Rev. 12:9 and Gen. 6:4 as depicting two separate falls from heaven, one of Satan being cast down, the other of the sons of God choosing to come to earth to take human wives." LINK

referencing to another post:

In Genesis, the law was given, even within the garden as God was creating the heavens and earth, as scripture notes in Isaiah 45:12 "I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded." So the word commanded, are utterances. The sequence of commands (or utterances) works toward man as was given the first command and it was spoken, not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (origins of evil – the tree of knowledge of good and evil). So how did the serpent enter into the garden – through the tree? We know that the serpent (symbolic for Lucifer - or the morning star (Y'shayahu 14:12-15 or Isa 14:12.)) was in the garden but I don't remember that a name was ever attached with the serpent, no name was given, correct? We just assumed but when Jesus spoke about the fall - "He replied, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." We (again) assume when Jesus saw him fall - that he (HaSatan) entered the garden (again assuming) and took the form of a serpent. So we don’t know how the actual fall of man and the angels begin?

[mitzi]

Auzubillahi minash shaytaan nir rajeem, Bismillah Hir-rahman Nir-raheem,



Iblis is a Jinn. It may be that Iblis is a two-fold entity whose materialistic side is Satan and the morally evil side is Iblis. Look at www.overlordsofchaos.com. There, evil is two-fold also. See also surah Al-Hijr, 40-41 and Al-Baqarah, 102, 103.


Iblis was punished for what came out of his mouth and not because he did not pay heed. For example, if God commanded you to do something but you weren't paying attention to God, you would have grounds to hide your intentional disobedience because God is fully ware of every living thing only on Judgment Day (Yawmid Deen). This is sort of what some Israelis did when they received commands from God (See Surah Ali-Imran 77-80)


He went against Allah (subhanna wa ta'ala)'s spirit of the Hereafter (i.e. Gabriel). Allah (swt) can make better existences than His creatures can dream or imagine. Iblis thought and intentioned otherwise. Hence, in a sense, Iblis is the spirit that antagonizes the "good against evil" dilemma. This "good and evil" in Allah's (swt) purpose of Good is for the grace of His creation . But for Iblis, it is for creation's deception as to God's wisdom and grace.

Grace is forgiveness if you forgive those who offend you. Wisdom is knowing good or bad is from Allah in order to test you and purify you.


I don't understand why you state this. Please try again.



Angels don't have free will. Some angels might know things before others. Archangels are the one's nearest to Allah (swt).



See this is why the bible cannot be considered fully authorative. God is not the author of confusion nor of doubt. Iblis causes God to question His intention and why do you think this is so?

The only reason why God would confuse the tongues is to disperse a tyrant/despot such as Nimrod. Nations will someday destroy all attempts to enslave them to false gods.

Hence, Babel/Babylon was a test from God to know whether the inhabitant's had learned to believe in the hefty price by resisting temptation that must be paid and in the spirit of the Hereafter, but no so much as to confuse the tongues.

If it's purpose was to confuse the tongues as in Babylon, it can therefore be said that God intentionally divided mankind's languages by allowing them to be divided in order that only one language would prevail, but not to cause confusion.

Which language do you think this is?

Hence tyrants and power-hungry ruler first try to divide even further what God what has allowed to be divided. But in Islam, we all share, despite our language barriers, the belief in true monotheism, true equality and true fraternity unlike freemasonry which just claims to do this and through progressive revelation having at the top and throughout its whole embodiment a negative energy and the one-world government/ religion/ bank whilst thirsting for immortality through alternative means other than a moral nature of high standards, repentance and heavenly Law.

Abdulrahman.org

When Sulaiman lost his kingdom, great numbers from among mankind and the jinn renegaded and followed their lusts. But, when Allah restored to Sulaiman his kingdom and the renegade came to follow the Straight Path once again, Sulaiman seized their holy scriptures which he buried underneath his throne. Shortly after, Sulaiman (Peace be upon him) died. In no time, the men and the Jinn uncovered the buried scriptures and said: This was a book revealed by Allah to Sulaiman who hid it from us. They took it as their religion and Allah the Almighty revealed His Saying: {And when there came to them a Messenger from Allah confirming what was with them, a party of those who were given the Scripture threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know!}. (Al-Baqarah, 101) and they followed what the devils gave out, i.e. musical instruments, play and all that blocks the remembrance of Allah.

© source where applicable

[source: http://abdurrahman.org/character/harut-marut.html]

Because Harut and Marut [102 Al-Baqarah] always warned those who inquired them to learn magic by threatening them with no portion in paradise, this knowledge about a return to paradise came from the Garden of Eden [Genesis 3].

Allah (swt) is the only god in the universe. He is the Sublime, the Majestic, and other ninety-seven attributes plus one that the Madhi will reveal and, in total, one hundred. This leads any person to not confuse jinn with the only true god because jinn can pretend to possess the attributes of God especially omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. Non-Islamic people at the time of Babel, Babylon and today don't have the sufficient wisdom to determine the difference between the occult demons and the true Power of a god that can create the whole earth with just a word.




This leads one to question the morality of this thread because it seeks to question the unicity of the only god of the universe with it's "plural" headline. This headline is more of a statement than a question because no one in their right mind would ask such a question.

However, I'm going to refrain to question the purpose of this thread. But to answer my own questions such as how did angels and demons become synonomous with servanthood to Allah (swt) in the biblical chronicles, here's my answer:

The scribes did not have a word for to differentiate the two or they were deluded into believing that even the origin of evil is from God.

I don't know if dibuk should have been the appropriate reference to the Arabic jinn.




Allah knows best.

Hi Mastralvarado;

I keep getting different stories on the definition on Jinn.

See the following and read entire article:

In the Qur'an Haman is referred to as a servant of Pharaoh, who built a high tower to ascend up to the God of Moses (sura 28:38; 29:38; 40:25,38). Yet the Babel tower occurs 750 years earlier (Genesis 11), and the name Haman is correctly found in the story of Esther in Babylon, 1,100 years after Pharaoh. Yusuf Ali believes that the reference here is simply to another Haman, yet the name Haman is not Egyptian, but uniquely Babylonian (Pfander 1835:283-284). While these examples do not necessarily bring into question any scientific findings, they point out an ignorance of the earlier scriptures. This speaks of a certain isolationism, which one would expect if the stories had been transmitted orally in an environment distant from that in which they originated. A more serious difficulty is evidenced by those suras which contradict observable secular historical and scientific data. There are quite a number to be found in the Qur'an, but for sake of brevity I will refer to just a few. According to the Qur'an (sura 20:85-87, 95-97) it is a Samaritan who molded the calf at mount Horeb, though the term Samaritan was not coined until several hundred years later, in 722 B.C. (Pfander 1835:284).


The name Issa is erroneously applied to Jesus, when the correct Arabic name for Jesus should be Yesuwa. Of particular interest are the rather odd statements in suras 16:15; 21:31 31:10; 78:6-7; 88:19 claiming that mountains are used as tent pegs to keep the earth from shaking. We now know from the study of geology that mountains are the result either of volcanic activity or of two tectonic plates colliding against the other (Campbell 1989:170-173). Ironically, both these reasons prove that the existence of mountains is evidence of instability in the earth's crust and not vice-versa. In sura 7:124 Pharaoh admonishes his sorcerers by threatening them with death on a cross. In sura 12:41, the baker in the story of Joseph is told he would be crucified. However, there were no crosses in those days (not to be confused with the Egyptian ankh which was an object for fertility and life, and not an instrument of death). Crucifixion was first practised by the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians and then borrowed extensively by the Romans close to the time of Christ, 1700 years after Pharaoh! There are other observable scientific inconsistencies, such as the contention in Sura 41:9-11 that the heavens were created from smoke (the Arabic word used is Dukhan), versus the Biblical portrayal of creation coming about by water (Genesis 1:1-2). Neuman and Eckelmann, two eminent physicists maintain that smoke, which is made up of organic particles could not have existed in a primordial state, whereas water (the Hebrew word used is mayim) most likely was present as new research on evolving nebulas show us the need for the presence of hydrogen and oxygen (or H2O) in a primordial state (Neuman/Eckelmann 1977:71-72 and Campbell 1989:22-25). Ironically it is the Bible and not the Qur'an which is closer to modern scientific findings. Meteors, and even stars, according to the Qu'ran are said to be missiles fired at eavesdropping satans and jinn who seek to listen to the reading of the Qur'an in heaven, and then pass on what they hear to men (suras 15:16-18; 37:6-10; 55:33-35; 67:5; 72:6-9 & 86:2-3). How are we to understand these suras? Are we to believe that Allah throws meteors (material matter) made up of carbon dioxide or iron-nickel, at non-material devils who steal a hearing at the heavenly council? And how are we to explain the fact that many of earth's meteors come in showers which subsequently travel in parallel paths? Are we to understand that these parallel paths imply that the devils are all lined up in rows at the same moment (Campbell 1989:175-177)?

C3: Scientific Peculiarities in the Qur'an

In the article they've listed two separate names, as "if" neither is the same as the other - see highlight. Jinn is always listed separately away from the other - for example tradition itself indicates to us that Mohammed could communicate with spirits and jinn.


Squeezing the article together, sorry!
Mitzi

[mitzi]

Auzubillahi minash shaytaan nir rajeem, Bismillah Hir-rahman Nir-raheem,



Iblis is a Jinn. It may be that Iblis is a two-fold entity whose materialistic side is Satan and the morally evil side is Iblis. Look at www.overlordsofchaos.com. There, evil is two-fold also. See also surah Al-Hijr, 40-41 and Al-Baqarah, 102, 103.


Iblis was punished for what came out of his mouth and not because he did not pay heed. For example, if God commanded you to do something but you weren't paying attention to God, you would have grounds to hide your intentional disobedience because God is fully ware of every living thing only on Judgment Day (Yawmid Deen). This is sort of what some Israelis did when they received commands from God (See Surah Ali-Imran 77-80)


He went against Allah (subhanna wa ta'ala)'s spirit of the Hereafter (i.e. Gabriel). Allah (swt) can make better existences than His creatures can dream or imagine. Iblis thought and intentioned otherwise. Hence, in a sense, Iblis is the spirit that antagonizes the "good against evil" dilemma. This "good and evil" in Allah's (swt) purpose of Good is for the grace of His creation . But for Iblis, it is for creation's deception as to God's wisdom and grace.

Grace is forgiveness if you forgive those who offend you. Wisdom is knowing good or bad is from Allah in order to test you and purify you.


I don't understand why you state this. Please try again.



Angels don't have free will. Some angels might know things before others. Archangels are the one's nearest to Allah (swt).



See this is why the bible cannot be considered fully authorative. God is not the author of confusion nor of doubt. Iblis causes God to question His intention and why do you think this is so?

The only reason why God would confuse the tongues is to disperse a tyrant/despot such as Nimrod. Nations will someday destroy all attempts to enslave them to false gods.

Hence, Babel/Babylon was a test from God to know whether the inhabitant's had learned to believe in the hefty price by resisting temptation that must be paid and in the spirit of the Hereafter, but no so much as to confuse the tongues.

If it's purpose was to confuse the tongues as in Babylon, it can therefore be said that God intentionally divided mankind's languages by allowing them to be divided in order that only one language would prevail, but not to cause confusion.

Which language do you think this is?

Hence tyrants and power-hungry ruler first try to divide even further what God what has allowed to be divided. But in Islam, we all share, despite our language barriers, the belief in true monotheism, true equality and true fraternity unlike freemasonry which just claims to do this and through progressive revelation having at the top and throughout its whole embodiment a negative energy and the one-world government/ religion/ bank whilst thirsting for immortality through alternative means other than a moral nature of high standards, repentance and heavenly Law.

Abdulrahman.org

When Sulaiman lost his kingdom, great numbers from among mankind and the jinn renegaded and followed their lusts. But, when Allah restored to Sulaiman his kingdom and the renegade came to follow the Straight Path once again, Sulaiman seized their holy scriptures which he buried underneath his throne. Shortly after, Sulaiman (Peace be upon him) died. In no time, the men and the Jinn uncovered the buried scriptures and said: This was a book revealed by Allah to Sulaiman who hid it from us. They took it as their religion and Allah the Almighty revealed His Saying: {And when there came to them a Messenger from Allah confirming what was with them, a party of those who were given the Scripture threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know!}. (Al-Baqarah, 101) and they followed what the devils gave out, i.e. musical instruments, play and all that blocks the remembrance of Allah.

© source where applicable

[source: http://abdurrahman.org/character/harut-marut.html]

Because Harut and Marut [102 Al-Baqarah] always warned those who inquired them to learn magic by threatening them with no portion in paradise, this knowledge about a return to paradise came from the Garden of Eden [Genesis 3].

Allah (swt) is the only god in the universe. He is the Sublime, the Majestic, and other ninety-seven attributes plus one that the Madhi will reveal and, in total, one hundred. This leads any person to not confuse jinn with the only true god because jinn can pretend to possess the attributes of God especially omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. Non-Islamic people at the time of Babel, Babylon and today don't have the sufficient wisdom to determine the difference between the occult demons and the true Power of a god that can create the whole earth with just a word.




This leads one to question the morality of this thread because it seeks to question the unicity of the only god of the universe with it's "plural" headline. This headline is more of a statement than a question because no one in their right mind would ask such a question.

However, I'm going to refrain to question the purpose of this thread. But to answer my own questions such as how did angels and demons become synonomous with servanthood to Allah (swt) in the biblical chronicles, here's my answer:

The scribes did not have a word for to differentiate the two or they were deluded into believing that even the origin of evil is from God.

I don't know if dibuk should have been the appropriate reference to the Arabic jinn.




Allah knows best.

I will sign off on this thread - considering the fact that you question the morality of the thread. It was not intended to go any further.

Again, Take Care, and thank you for the comments that you gave

[OneSizeFit]

Now I've heard everything.

[mitzi]

Now I've heard everything.

Good One Size Fit, life complete. If someone feels uncomfortable about writing/posting on this thread because of the title - and considering his background is (what) Muslim - as the thread is under Islam board....then which way do you think it should go? If I wanted to know more information about a subject - or interpretation that's in the Quran ....who better than to answer those questions then a person who is actually practicing the faith.

[OneSizeFit]

Good One Size Fit, life complete. If someone feels uncomfortable about writing/posting on this thread because of the title - and considering his background is (what) Muslim - as the thread is under Islam board....then which way do you think it should go? If I wanted to know more information about a subject - or interpretation that's in the Quran ....who better than to answer those questions then a person who is actually practicing the faith.

I wasnt aware Muslims were so sensitive, I didnt know the thread was "morally questionable" - luckily I live in the USA and not Saudi Arabia, so I have the freedom to be morally questionable without fearing the religious police coming for my tongue. "Thanks be to God."

[mitzi]

I wasnt aware Muslims were so sensitive, I didnt know the thread was "morally questionable" - luckily I live in the USA and not Saudi Arabia, so I have the freedom to be morally questionable without fearing the religious police coming for my tongue. "Thanks be to God."

It's not a matter of being sensitive - One Size, as being out of respect for someone who might not want to write on the thread, who knows. You know I pointed out a question to a friend of mine many years ago - living outside this country and returning back home for visits - it's not easy going back and forth from one life style to another. It's like living a dual life. Understanding this, I thanked him for as much as he could write.

You, yourself, should know there are people who are more orthodox than others. I can write from an outside point of view - I grew up in a strict religious atmosphere but what might seem on the outside as close family (which we were) is (also) close to the religion. In a sense, it's not easy to slip back and forth from a more liberal to a orthodox lifestyle view -- something is going to give and tare. You can't shake what you've been taught or understand.

[Bowman]

Can someone explain the hierarchy of angels in Islam? Are the archangels the "we" in the Quran? We are told God is One, but then the Angel speaking consistently refers to "we" as in we created you, we commanded Iblis to worship "Adam" - who is this "we"? Is this a multiplicity of "persons" who have no will beyond the will of God, Gabriel being the Spirit of God, the Angel of the Lord in the Tanakh? Whats going on here.

The 'we' and 'our' in these cases in the Koran applies to the Biblical Trinity, from which it copied itself from. Plural of Majesty did not exist in ancient Arabic, thus, it can only apply to an entity that is both one and more than one, at the same time.

Islam is not able to comprehend this concept - however orthodox Christians can.

The caste of angels in the Koran is the same as that of the Holy Bible. The Spirit is not the angel Gabriel, as this was an islamic invention manufactured to thwart the Trinity.

Sura 53 even describes the four living creatures surrounding the Throne of God..etc, etc...

[OneSizeFit]

The 'we' and 'our' in these cases in the Koran applies to the Biblical Trinity, from which it copied itself from. Plural of Majesty did not exist in ancient Arabic, thus, it can only apply to an entity that is both one and more than one, at the same time.

Islam is not able to comprehend this concept - however orthodox Christians can.

The caste of angels in the Koran is the same as that of the Holy Bible. The Spirit is not the angel Gabriel, as this was an islamic invention manufactured to thwart the Trinity.

Sura 53 even describes the four living creatures surrounding the Throne of God..etc, etc...

i am extremely familiar with islam, seeing half of my family is, so i am extremely familiar with the general thrology and hierarchies, its actually why i started this thread. i have been reading some sufi material recently from ghazali, ibn arabi, qadir-jilani, they speak of the divine unity, the royal we, but it all seems to point back to the emanation theory, similar to what kabbalists teach - and it is what is in the Torah, all the way back to the term elohim. what is funny is all the deep theologies of Judaism and Islam point to a sort of archaic original man, an orignal form, a spirit of mankind, in Judaism, the Adam Kadmon, in Islam, Mohammad's perfected spirit or the Man of Light, christianity is a bit more honest about the multiplicity of god's "persons", i would go as far as to say christianity along with the essenes, qumran community knew about the "two powers in heaven," jesus revealed it, but ive come to the conclusion, all is a mystery. we havent the slightest clue as to the nature of what is behind our reality, and i think this is actually a line in the Quran, do not discuss it, just know somehow or someway, despite what is revealed that God is One, God is a Unity; the problem is the western mind, the european mind is never satisfied, hence we have 800 page books explaining the meaning of three persons and one substance, etc, etc.

[Michael3rd]

Allahumma - arabic -

Holy Quraan 3 ; 26 , Where It States ; Say: O Allah! Owner of Sovereignty! Thou givest sovereignty unto whom Thou wilt, and Thou withdrawest sovereignty from whom Thou wilt. Thou exaltest whom Thou wilt, and Thou abasest whom Thou wilt. In Thy hand is the good. Lo! Thou art Able to do all things.

Holy Qur'aan 5 ; 114 , Where It States ' Jesus, son of Mary, said: O Allah, Lord of us! Send down for us a table spread with food from heaven, that it may be a feast for us, for the first of us and for the last of us, and a sign from Thee. Give us sustenance, for Thou art the Best of Sustainers.

Holy Qur'aan 8 ; 32 , Where It States ; And when they said: O Allah! If this be indeed the truth from Thee, then rain down stones on us or bring on us some painful doom!

Holy Qur'aan 10 ; 10 , Where It States ; Their prayer therein will be: Glory be to Thee, O Allah! and their greeting therein will be: Peace. And the conclusion of their prayer will be: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!

Holy Qur'aan 39 ; 46 , Where It States ; Say: O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of the Invisible and the Visible! Thou wilt judge between Thy slaves concerning that wherein they used to differ.

The word ( Allahumma - arabic ) means '' O Allah The Source - And Hum - arabic - '' They - The heavenly host , Allahumma is another word that was derived from the Hebrew word Eloheem , Meaning '' These Beings '' Or a group of '' Elohs '' Allahummas or Eloheems are Angels of El , Or messengers of El .

Usually in The Holy Qur'aan when it says . '' That We Did This , Or We Created This Or Our Signs Etc ; It is referring to these Allahummas or Eloheem . They are physical Angelic Beings ; Not spooks or spirits or ghosts . The are beings that do the work of El , or Allah . The word Allahumma , Or Eloheem is found through the scroll of The Holy Qur'aan ,

And is falsely translated as A Single , With the word '' God '' The name Allahumma or Eloheem is used for Benevolent Agreeable and Malevolent , Disagreeable Beings , And even in the case gor Human Beings as found in ( Exodus 7 ; 1 ) When Yahuwa made Moses an Elheem to Pharaoh Rameses ll .

Exodus 7 ; 1 , Where It States ; And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.