Did He Fail His Mission? The extent of the atonement

[Darfius]

Darfius wrote:
"To claim that God randomly chooses people to save is not only idiotic on its face, it is a defamation of the character of Love.”

Since He is the LORD God, He can choose however He decides to choose and He is never under obligation to any created being, so if the LORD God did indeed choose randomly – although there is no Biblical evidence that He did so – it’s none of your business.

Wrong. His love makes Him obligated to His creations. What sort of love carries with it no obligations? He is obligated to act fairly, act justly, act mercifully and act wisely. None of which would be fulfilled if He carried out salvation as you allege that He does. And to save at random and with no regard for individual choices would make Him unjust and capricious, not loving. You may be seeking to do Him honor, but you are dragging His holy name through the mud. Besides, He has no need of your honor. He has a demand for your obedience and understanding.

Your comment that a random choice is “a defamation of the character of love” seems to imply that you are of the starry-eyed view that the LORD God is under an obligation to save everyone of the entire human race. If so, then your “god” is not the GOD revealed in the Bible but it is a demented concoction of your over-fertile imagination.

Love is obligated to be loving. God's desires are stated explicitly:

1 Timothy 2:4

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Why would He desire something that He is not obligated to do?

In the hope that Biblical reality might penetrate your opinion-packed cerebral cavity, take a look at Chapter Six [6] of the Book of Genesis, where, in verses 5 to 7, it is declared:

Genesis 6:5-7 -
[5] “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beasts, and creeping things, and the birds of the air; for I regret that I made them.”

It has been conservatively estimated by John Whitcomb and Henry Morris in their definitive work, “The Genesis Flood,” that at least 1,030 MILLION people perished in the Great world-wide Flood of Noah’s time.

So it’s very obvious that the term “the whole world” in 1 John 2:2 has to be understood as exclusive of the 1,030,000,000 people whom the LORD God destroyed in the Great World-Wide Flood in the in the time of Noah as testified in the Book of Genesis chapters 6 and 7].

If, as you appear to believe, the LORD God loves every individual person of the entire human race in all generations without any exception whatsoever, why then did GOD decide to destroy the entire human race at that time – except for just eight [8] people - in the time of Noah? Please edify us all with your reconciliation of the true GOD of the Bible - Who destroyed 1,030,000,000 people – with your “santa claus”-type “god” that, according to wishful thinking, is just too cute to kill even a fly.

It is because you have a misconception about love that you have a misconception about God. Love does not preclude severity. Indeed, sometimes it demands it. The world had chosen wickedness to the degree that nothing less than destruction from the face of the earth (not from existence) would be of any use. And Noah carried with him the promise of the seed who would come to save even those who had perished from the face of the earth.

You find it simple to imagine that God loves you and difficult to imagine that He loved those people. I find it difficult to imagine that God loves you, but know that He does.

While you’re doing that, also take a close look at 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 for a description of what will occur on Earth when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to deal with and destroy His enemies.

It may surprise you to find who his enemies really are. Many will say in that day, Lord, Lord...Nevertheless, can Love cease to love, though for the time being it may need to punish? Then never did a rebuking father or mother love their child...

Anyone who insists on the heresy of “universal atonement” is either spiritually-blind- or abysmally ignorant, or both.

Michael T.

Anyone who suggests that love can be discriminative is either spiritually blind, abysmally ignorant, or both.

[Michael T.]

Darfius,

Michael T. wrote:
“Precisely where in my message did I say that GOD chose “randomly”? Nowhere. Therefore your term “randomly” is a straw-man. Do please address what I actually *did* say; NOT what I did *not* say.”

Darfius wrote:
“If nothing we are, have been, have done, will be or will do has to do with the reason God saves us, then how is it not random?”

The Scriptures give a very precise answer to your concern about how GOD has already chosen all those whom He has willed to save. So if you’re genuinely interested in this matter, consult the Scriptures.

But the crucial question for you is whether or not GOD has already chosen *you* to be brought to salvation.
Since only the LORD God knows the answer to this question, I recommend that you ask Him.

Darfius wrote:
"According to you, God cannot have a reason of His own concerning us, as that would have to do with us. So in your mind, salvation is a game of dice.”

Again, you’re putting your own ideas and words into my mouth; ideas and words which I’ve neither said nor implied. I’ve neither said nor implied that “God cannot have a reason.”

Also, you’re an incompetent mind-reader. The idea that “salvation is a game of dice” [these are your words] is not in my mind, but in yours.

Michael T.

[Michael T.]

Darfius,

Michael T. wrote:
"Anyone who insists on the heresy of “universal atonement” is either spiritually-blind- or abysmally ignorant, or both.”

Darfius wrote:
"Anyone who suggests that love can be discriminative is either spiritually blind, abysmally ignorant, or both.”

It seems that you’re not a student of the Scriptures for if you were, I wouldn’t need to bring the following Scripture texts to your attention:

[The LORD God speaking to the nation of Israel]
Deuteronomy 7:7-11 –
[7] “he LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people:
[8] But because the LORD loved you, and because He would keep the oath which He had sworn unto your fathers, has the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
[9] Know therefore that the LORD thy God, He is God, the faithful God, Who keeps covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
[10] And repays them that hate Him to their face, to destroy them: He will not be slack to him that hates Him, He will repay him to his face.
[11] Thou shall therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.”

Psalm 5:4-6 -
[4] “For Thou are not a God that has pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee.
[5] The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: You hate all workers of iniquity.
[6] Thou shall destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

[The Lord Jesus Christ is speaking.]
Matthew 7:22-23 –
[22] “Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name we have cast out devils? And in Thy name we have done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity.”

Matthew 10:28 [Christ’s is speaking] -
“And do not fear them who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul: but instead fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Matthew 25:41-46 -
[41] “Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, you accursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[42] For I was an hungry, and you gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink:
[43] I was a stranger, and you did not take me in: naked, and you did not clothe me not: sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.
[44] Then shall they also answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we Thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to Thee?
[45] Then shall He answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did it not to Me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Revelation 20:15 -
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Jude 5:7 -
[5] “I will therefore remind you that though you once knew this, how the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed them that believed not.
[6] And the angels who did not keep their first estate, but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
[7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and committing perversion, are displayed as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

The Apostle Paul speaks of Christ’s Second Advent:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 -
[7] “And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;”

It is obvious from these and many other Scripture passages that the theory of “universal divine love” has no support in the Scriptures. The true LORD God Who reveals Himself in His Scriptures loves those whom He chooses to love. As it is written:

Romans 9:17-18 -
[17] “For the scripture says to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My Name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and he hardens whoever He wills.

Will you continue to insist that Divine love is indiscriminate?

Romans 9:13 –
“As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

Is Romans 9:13 [above] proof that Divine love does not discriminates?

Michael T.

[Michael T.]

chappie,

A question for you, chappie:
Is Psalm 5:4-6 [cited below] consistent with your fetishist theory of “universal propitiation”?

Psalm 5:4-6 -
[4] “For Thou are not a God that has pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee.
[5] The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: You hate all workers of iniquity.
[6] Thou shall destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

[Michael T.]

chappie,

Another question for you, chappie:
Is Matthew 7:22-23 [cited below] consistent with your fetishist theory of “universal propitiation”?

Matthew 7:22-23 –
[22] “Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name we have cast out devils? And in Thy name we have done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: depart from Me, you who work iniquity.”