The Classic Homosexuality Debate

[PsychGuy]

Two questions:
1) What is the cause of homosexuality? Is there more than one? Is it biological/innate or environmental/social? Or a little of both?

2) Can sexual orientation change? Does "gay-to-straight" therapy, for example, work?

[princesa]

Hi PsychGuy, I asked a question related to this (somewhat) months ago and received very interesting and varied responses. Here is the link in case you're interested. http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=123695

I don't feel you can learn homosexuality, there is a tendency towards attraction to the same sex from childhood sometimes. (No one would choose to be ostracized if they could help it)Ofcourse, there are people who don't feel attraction at all to the opposite sex but they expirement. These are not homosexuals. And am pretty certain that once you realize you are attracted to the same sex, that never changes. That says nothing about whether or not you should act on it.

[PsychGuy]

Hi PsychGuy, I asked a question related to this (somewhat) months ago and received very interesting and varied responses. Here is the link in case you're interested. http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=123695

Thanks for the link. Your OP was more about the morality of homosexuality based on Biblical theology. (i.e. can an unrepentant homosexual be saved if they do nice things for people and say they love Jesus?) My question is more related to the psychological and/or biological factors related to homosexuality, regardless of religious/theological persuasion (i.e. what causes homosexuality and can sexual orientation change?). But that thread was interesting, nonetheless.

I don't feel you can learn homosexuality, there is a tendency towards attraction to the same sex from childhood sometimes. (No one would choose to be ostracized if they could help it)Ofcourse, there are people who don't feel attraction at all to the opposite sex but they expirement. These are not homosexuals. And am pretty certain that once you realize you are attracted to the same sex, that never changes. That says nothing about whether or not you should act on it.

I tend to agree.

[Carrikature]

Two questions:
1) What is the cause of homosexuality? Is there more than one? Is it biological/innate or environmental/social? Or a little of both?

2) Can sexual orientation change? Does "gay-to-straight" therapy, for example, work?

I'd strongly suggest some research. The answers are readily available. However, the short answer to question one is "it varies". There is ample evidence of biological predispostion, but one's environment can greatly affect it as well.

The answer to question two is "not really". There do seem to be people who over time have realized that they are more bisexual than homosexual*. "Gay to straight" therapy has been shown to cause more harm than good. However, I do know of Christian men who are attracted to the same sex who have gone through Christian counseling that allows them to control their desires. It can't be considered as 'gay to straight' though, since their sexual preference doesn't change. They just no longer act on it.

Hope that helps.






*Gonna give a caveat that I haven't personally known these people, it's just what I have observed and/or heard about.

[Little Shepherd]

1) Like many predispositions, it seems to be influenced by both, and not necessarily to the same degree in different individuals.

There has been no conclusive genetic link found, though it wouldn't surprise me if such existed. Brain structure tests have found certain structural differences in some, though by no means all, homosexuals that have been thus studied. And considering when the tests are performed, it can't be shown which would have caused which(if there is indeed a causal relationship; correlation is not causation after all).

Environmentally, there are some factors that show up in the background of homosexuals to a greater degree than in non-homosexuals. Estrangement from one's father is one. Childhood sexual abuse is another. But neither of these is universal either. Neither apply to me, for example.

So we really don't know all the potential factors - biological or environmental - that contribute to the development of homosexual attraction. There are some correlations, but nothing definitive or universally applicable.

2) I don't know. What psychological research we have on the topic seem to suggest that sexuality isn't nearly as inflexible as some people would have you believe(although it's worth pointing out that it seems much less flexible in males than in females), so I certainly can't rule it out.

As far as harm goes, it has not been shown to cause psychological harm in people who engage in the therapy voluntarily in most cases. People forced into it(say, by worried parents) are a wholly different matter altogether. The worst case scenario for the vast majority of people who attempt some type of sexual reorientation therapy is that it just doesn't work for them.

For someone who really wants it to work, I suppose the disappointment could take quite a toll. And there are some more extreme therapies(thankfully rare) that can cause physical harm. Whether that also causes psychological harm really depends on the person's mental state going into the procedure and their understanding of the risks involved.

You also have to understand that many people(even[perhaps especially] Christians) don't understand that the Bible only condemns the actions and the orientation is simply another temptation to either resist or submit to, theologically speaking. Our spiritual health is tied to our obedience regardless of how we feel, not to the desires themselves. People who view their spiritual health in terms of how little they're tempted(orientation in this case, though you could extend it to other temptations as well) are going to be unnecessarily tormented whether or not they engage in any kind of therapy.

[Darfius]

Two questions:
1) What is the cause of homosexuality? Is there more than one? Is it biological/innate or environmental/social? Or a little of both?

Given the fact that evolution is a crock, one would have to presume that God made a 'gay gene', which, of course, is nonsense. Which means that it is largely environmentally caused, but you did not leave any room for individual choice. Our choices absolutely play a part in forming our personalities, including "sexual orientation."

2) Can sexual orientation change? Does "gay-to-straight" therapy, for example, work?

Of course it can change. Show a man how to truly be a man (that is, like Christ), and he will cease to be attracted to other men. Show a woman how to truly be a woman (that is, like Christ, only like a woman Christ) and she will cease to be attracted to other women.

I have had many homosexual friends and without fail they are all able to identify an attractive woman. Also, without fail it is the woman's personality that turns them away. Even for heterosexuals (grown up ones, perhaps not children/stunted adults) personality plays a large part in what is attractive. IMO, physical attraction is something that is developed based on certain personality traits one finds attractive, in addition to what one has been led to believe is attractive by society. So an effeminate homosexual is obviously a man who is looking for a strong male figure to submit to and a masculine lesbian is one looking for a weak female figure to dominate. And is there really such a thing as a masculine homosexual or a feminine lesbian? Not really. Those tend to be "bisexual" which of course just means that they're willing to have sex with anything. Or they are just overtly perverse and abnormal in a particular area of their personality. Problem solved.

I want to be clear that I do not at all dislike homosexuals because they are homosexuals any more than I dislike adulterers because they are adulterers. I do tend to dislike it when people are self-justifying, however, which is something homosexuals tend to be extremely often. And they are not entirely to blame for that, either, because American society in particular has become ridiculously tolerant towards their perversion for a long time now. They are getting conflicting messages and of course people in general tend to shy away from whichever message is more demanding on their behavior.

[PsychGuy]

I'd strongly suggest some research. The answers are readily available.

I wouldn't dismiss the debate so easily. I agree with you that most (though not all) researchers agree today that there is an interaction between biology and environment. There is still plenty of disagreement, however, on TO WHAT EXTENT each of those things plays a role.

The answer to question two is "not really". There do seem to be people who over time have realized that they are more bisexual than homosexual*. "Gay to straight" therapy has been shown to cause more harm than good. However, I do know of Christian men who are attracted to the same sex who have gone through Christian counseling that allows them to control their desires. It can't be considered as 'gay to straight' though, since their sexual preference doesn't change. They just no longer act on it.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for your input.

[PsychGuy]

1) Like many predispositions, it seems to be influenced by both, and not necessarily to the same degree in different individuals.

There has been no conclusive genetic link found, though it wouldn't surprise me if such existed. Brain structure tests have found certain structural differences in some, though by no means all, homosexuals that have been thus studied. And considering when the tests are performed, it can't be shown which would have caused which(if there is indeed a causal relationship; correlation is not causation after all).

Environmentally, there are some factors that show up in the background of homosexuals to a greater degree than in non-homosexuals. Estrangement from one's father is one. Childhood sexual abuse is another. But neither of these is universal either. Neither apply to me, for example.

So we really don't know all the potential factors - biological or environmental - that contribute to the development of homosexual attraction. There are some correlations, but nothing definitive or universally applicable.

Great points all around.

2) I don't know. What psychological research we have on the topic seem to suggest that sexuality isn't nearly as inflexible as some people would have you believe(although it's worth pointing out that it seems much less flexible in males than in females), so I certainly can't rule it out.

As far as harm goes, it has not been shown to cause psychological harm in people who engage in the therapy voluntarily in most cases. People forced into it(say, by worried parents) are a wholly different matter altogether. The worst case scenario for the vast majority of people who attempt some type of sexual reorientation therapy is that it just doesn't work for them.

Thanks for pointing out the distinction between entering therapy voluntarily or not, it's not something I had considered before. I have heard that homosexuals who gay-to-straight therapy tend to have higher rates of depression, suicide attempts, etc. Seems like I was reading a study to that effect not too long ago.

You also have to understand that many people(even[perhaps especially] Christians) don't understand that the Bible only condemns the actions and the orientation is simply another temptation to either resist or submit to, theologically speaking. Our spiritual health is tied to our obedience regardless of how we feel, not to the desires themselves. People who view their spiritual health in terms of how little they're tempted(orientation in this case, though you could extend it to other temptations as well) are going to be unnecessarily tormented whether or not they engage in any kind of therapy.

Very well said.

[PsychGuy]

Given the fact that evolution is a crock, one would have to presume that God made a 'gay gene', which, of course, is nonsense. Which means that it is largely environmentally caused, but you did not leave any room for individual choice. Our choices absolutely play a part in forming our personalities, including "sexual orientation."

Studies have generally shown that homosexuals did not "choose" to be gay, any more than heterosexuals "choose" to be straight. We can choose to act or not act on our predispositions and urges, but that has nothing to do with how we got those predispositions and urges. Most homosexuals realized that they were attracted to the same gender at a very early age.

Of course it can change. Show a man how to truly be a man (that is, like Christ), and he will cease to be attracted to other men. Show a woman how to truly be a woman (that is, like Christ, only like a woman Christ) and she will cease to be attracted to other women.

I would love to see the evidence for this. As people like Little Shepherd can surely attest to, just because someone "shows you" how to have a heterosexual relationship (Jesus didn't have any relationship, so that's an ironic example) doesn't mean you're suddenly going to stop being attracted to other people of your same gender. As Carr mentioned, therapy can help reduce overall sex drive, but that's not the same as a reversal of sexual orientation.

I have had many homosexual friends and without fail they are all able to identify an attractive woman.

I'm sure you are able to identify an attractive man, as well. Being able to call someone objectively attractive has nothing to do with whether you yourself are sexually attracted to them.

Also, without fail it is the woman's personality that turns them away.

How do you know this, out of curiosity?

Even for heterosexuals (grown up ones, perhaps not children/stunted adults) personality plays a large part in what is attractive.

Agreed, but if you're a heterosexual man, I don't care how great a personality that another man has who I introduce you to, you're not going to be sexually attracted to him. He might become your best friend, though. That's why, for example, gay men often have a number of close female friends.

IMO, physical attraction is something that is developed based on certain personality traits one finds attractive

You never looked at Playboy much, I take it?

So an effeminate homosexual is obviously a man who is looking for a strong male figure to submit to and a masculine lesbian is one looking for a weak female figure to dominate.

That can be the case, though I don't think in the real world the dominance/submission thing is as extreme as you're making it out to be.

And is there really such a thing as a masculine homosexual or a feminine lesbian? Not really.

You might wanna get out more.

Those tend to be "bisexual" which of course just means that they're willing to have sex with anything.

Anything? lol.

I want to be clear that I do not at all dislike homosexuals because they are homosexuals any more than I dislike adulterers because they are adulterers. I do tend to dislike it when people are self-justifying, however, which is something homosexuals tend to be extremely often. And they are not entirely to blame for that, either, because American society in particular has become ridiculously tolerant towards their perversion for a long time now. They are getting conflicting messages and of course people in general tend to shy away from whichever message is more demanding on their behavior.

You have a point, although I think you're glossing over a lot of the nuances within this subject. In particular you really should look into the many scientific studies that have been done on causes for homosexuality, and also on attempts at reversing sexual orientation.

[princesa]

The truth is once you recognize that your body gets stimulation from the same gender (which in most instances happens early in life) I can't imagine how studying or reading or group sessions can halt that "reflex" response you get from being stimulated. You can try to avoid it by not looking or thinking about the same gender. But you know if you let yourself go there(this is where the action part in Christianity is important) instead of resisting, that is the sin. Not the tendency/trait. The action. Sorry if i strayed from your initial question. But people just don't understand, multitudes have prayed incessantly for this to go away, they HATE the feeling of being attracted to the same sex. It feels wrong, they become ashamed, especially those brought up in Christian homes. It's like trying to stop your knee from moving forward when you hit it, it's a reflex that you can't control. But you can control how long you let it last, you can switch thoughts quickly and you can avoid certain situations.

[Carrikature]

I wouldn't dismiss the debate so easily. I agree with you that most (though not all) researchers agree today that there is an interaction between biology and environment. There is still plenty of disagreement, however, on TO WHAT EXTENT each of those things plays a role.

No doubt. It's not that I've dismissed the debate easily. I'm fairly certain that the 'to what extent' varies a lot from person to person.

Thanks for your input.

You bet.

[Chrs]

Darfius:

I have had many homosexual friends and without fail they are all able to identify an attractive woman.

Identification of an aesthetically attractive woman does not necessarily mean they're attracted to them. I can, for example, evaluate the relative attractiveness of two males without being homosexual.

Also, without fail it is the woman's personality that turns them away.

Oh, really? Firstly, that's a huge blanket assertion. Are you sure it's not, for instance, the fact that they don't like the gender?

Even for heterosexuals (grown up ones, perhaps not children/stunted adults) personality plays a large part in what is attractive. IMO, physical attraction is something that is developed based on certain personality traits one finds attractive

I agree that attractiveness is a combined thing between physical attractiveness, emotional attractiveness and their personalities. Physical attractiveness is, as the name would implies, based off physical matters. Yes, it's shallow, and it's no basis for a relationship of any kind. But by saying that physical attractiveness is heavily reliant on personality is, quite simply, misusing and misunderstanding the word "Physical".

So an effeminate homosexual is obviously a man who is looking for a strong male figure to submit to and a masculine lesbian is one looking for a weak female figure to dominate. And is there really such a thing as a masculine homosexual or a feminine lesbian?

Yes. Assuming by masculine you mean the stereotypically masculine, as with feminine. Relationships generally have a more dominant and a more submissive character in them. This doesn't mean one has no power, it just means that one is a figurehead. This isn't always the case, though. Even in heterosexual relationships (For example, mine. Neither of us are dominant on making decisions).

Not really. Those tend to be "bisexual" which of course just means that they're willing to have sex with anything.

So, bisexual means willing to have sex with anything? Well then, heterosexual means willing to have sex with anything of the opposite gender.

Well, no. That's not how it works.

I do tend to dislike it when people are self-justifying, however, which is something homosexuals tend to be extremely often.

When was the last time you were called to justify being heterosexual?

[Darfius]

Studies have generally shown that homosexuals did not "choose" to be gay, any more than heterosexuals "choose" to be straight. We can choose to act or not act on our predispositions and urges, but that has nothing to do with how we got those predispositions and urges. Most homosexuals realized that they were attracted to the same gender at a very early age.

Studies have shown that fat people did not "choose" to be fat, either, but studies can be made to "show" anything these days, can't they? I wonder what a study conducted in heaven would show on the matter. Can you imagine the head angel in charge announcing with a lisp at the end, "Ok, girlsssss, there'sssss a ninety perssssssent chansssse that they can't help it!" What could the studies possibly show, anyway? A percentage range of likelihood that they can/cannot help it? Tendencies? Obviously tendencies are not a rule, are they? I would like for any Christian that thinks homosexuals "were born that way" to reconcile that with God "knitting" us all in the womb. Most homosexuals were also making choices at a very early age. Or getting molested at a very early age. Or lacking a strong male/female figure.

I would love to see the evidence for this. As people like Little Shepherd can surely attest to, just because someone "shows you" how to have a heterosexual relationship (Jesus didn't have any relationship, so that's an ironic example) doesn't mean you're suddenly going to stop being attracted to other people of your same gender. As Carr mentioned, therapy can help reduce overall sex drive, but that's not the same as a reversal of sexual orientation.

Christ didn't need to have a relationship to show us how to be a man, now did He? And I didn't say "show people how to have a heterosexual relationship", as if that's entirely possible. I said show them how to be like Christ and they will figure out how to have one. For some reason Paul thought it was possible to do all things through Christ who strengthens us, and for some reason I agree with him. For heaven's sake, there are men out there who think they can't be blamed for their pornography addiction, which is just as ridiculous.

I'm sure you are able to identify an attractive man, as well. Being able to call someone objectively attractive has nothing to do with whether you yourself are sexually attracted to them.

I can identify an attractive man, roughly, yes. And I'm sure if I had learned to associate my own conscious/subconscious needs with what a man tends to represent, I would be able to imagine being with a man. As it is, I was too manly even as a child and I'm ridiculously manly now, so the idea is quite naturally repulsive.

How do you know this, out of curiosity?

I ask them and pay attention. It's also consistent with my elegant (but simple to figure out) theory.

Agreed, but if you're a heterosexual man, I don't care how great a personality that another man has who I introduce you to, you're not going to be sexually attracted to him. He might become your best friend, though. That's why, for example, gay men often have a number of close female friends.

Again, this is only evidence that by now, the personality traits I am seeking in a potential mate (I'm married, so I am speaking hypothetically) are ones I consider to be personified in a woman and not a man. He would only become my best friend if his personality was similar to my own (that's how it works between heterosexual individuals of the same sex, they do not need anything from one another, so they become friends based on shared interests/similar personalities). But assuming he was the most womanly man around, I still would not be able to overcome the fact that by now I associate the personality traits I find desirable exclusively with women.

That can be the case, though I don't think in the real world the dominance/submission thing is as extreme as you're making it out to be.

It's not always extreme, but it is always present. It's clearly what underlies normal, healthy sexual preferences in mankind and not mere physical appearance. For example, I am not at all attracted to tribeswomen in indigenous cultures, not because they are necessarily less attractive physically than women from more advanced cultures, but because they strike me as more masculine or childish, respectively. And yet within those cultures they are obviously quite feminine. Or if I were to see a beautiful woman in my bachelor days, if I found out that she was masculine or (shudder) a lesbian, any personal attraction immediately disappeared irrevocably.

You might wanna get out more.

This is not an argument.

Anything? lol.

Yes, anything.

You have a point, although I think you're glossing over a lot of the nuances within this subject. In particular you really should look into the many scientific studies that have been done on causes for homosexuality, and also on attempts at reversing sexual orientation.

Who is funding these studies? What is there expressed intention? Are the attempts at reversing sexual orientation under Christian supervision? I'd rather not waste my time trying to reconcile reality with the world's preferred view of reality.

[Darfius]

The truth is once you recognize that your body gets stimulation from the same gender (which in most instances happens early in life) I can't imagine how studying or reading or group sessions can halt that "reflex" response you get from being stimulated. You can try to avoid it by not looking or thinking about the same gender. But you know if you let yourself go there(this is where the action part in Christianity is important) instead of resisting, that is the sin. Not the tendency/trait. The action. Sorry if i strayed from your initial question. But people just don't understand, multitudes have prayed incessantly for this to go away, they HATE the feeling of being attracted to the same sex. It feels wrong, they become ashamed, especially those brought up in Christian homes. It's like trying to stop your knee from moving forward when you hit it, it's a reflex that you can't control. But you can control how long you let it last, you can switch thoughts quickly and you can avoid certain situations.

It's a reflex because to a certain point it has been reinforced in such a person's mind. For example, it's a "reflex" for a fat person to reach for that third piece of pie, but it's not an irreversible reflex. The key is to pray unceasingly to God in Christ's name and take personal responsibility. What you said about avoiding certain situations and "bringing every thought captive to Christ" is exactly right. Heterosexuals have to do the exact same in many areas, so it is not a battle unique to homosexuals. And eventually, all Christians who are making genuine attempts to imitate their professed Master will begin to see victories, however small.

George MacDonald

That no keeping but a perfect one will satisfy God, I hold with all my heart and strength; but that there is none else He cares for, is one of the lies of the enemy. What father is not pleased with the first tottering attempt of his little one to walk? What father would be satisfied with anything but the manly step of the fullgrown son?

[Chrs]

Studies have shown that fat people did not "choose" to be fat, either, but studies can be made to "show" anything these days, can't they?

Considering the question of the thread is to do with the psychology of the matter, an anti-psychology and anti-scientific-study viewpoint is hardly useful, or indeed, correct.

I would like for any Christian that thinks homosexuals "were born that way" to reconcile that with God "knitting" us all in the womb.

More interestingly, evidence points to sexuality being, to use your wording, something that we are "born that way" - How would you reconcile that with that idea? Without dismissing the premise out of hand as it doesn't reconcile with another premise.

Most homosexuals were also making choices at a very early age. Or getting molested at a very early age. Or lacking a strong male/female figure.

Did you choose to be heterosexual? Also, No and No.

I can identify an attractive man, roughly, yes.

Which refutes your idea about homosexual men identifying attractive women.

And I'm sure if I had learned to associate my own conscious/subconscious needs with what a man tends to represent, I would be able to imagine being with a man.

Unsubstantiated, what evidence is there to back that this is what occurs?

Again, this is only evidence that by now, the personality traits I am seeking in a potential mate (I'm married, so I am speaking hypothetically) are ones I consider to be personified in a woman and not a man.

What are they, and why can they not be held by a man? These are personality traits you were talking of, not physical ones.

(that's how it works between heterosexual individuals of the same sex, they do not need anything from one another, so they become friends based on shared interests/similar personalities)

I'm pretty sure that's how it works between heterosexual friends of the opposite sex, homosexual friends of the same sex and homosexual friends of the opposite sex. It's how friendship generally emerges.

I notice you've missed out a fair number of my replies, an answer would be appreciated, particually for this point:

When was the last time you were called to justify being heterosexual?