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Pope Francis: Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

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  • Pope Francis: Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

    Here is a more or less balanced article that asks "Does Pope Francis Believe Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?".
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-same-god.html

    There has been a lot of anti-RCC rubbish written by protestant bigots over the years but if given the opportunity I would ask these guys if they reject the direct teachings of Jesus Christ concerning to whom we are to pray?

  • #2
    The article does not say Pope Francis believes they are the same God. the author of the article does not even understand the trinity. he talks about the "roles" God plays. That is sebellianism, which is a heresy to protestants and RCC.

    If you want to know if muslims worship our God, just ask them if they believe Jesus is God.

    Do you believe Jesus is God, elam?

    Comment


    • #3
      They aren't the same, and such can be demonstrated by some core differences. The God of the Bible is the Truth, He can't lie, but Allah of the Koran is "the greatest of deceivers", and "all deception belongs" to him.

      Numbers 23:“God is not a man, that He should lie,
      Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
      Has He said, and will He not do it?
      Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

      Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised [b]long ages ago,

      Hebrews 6:17-19New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      17 [a]In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, [b]interposed with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have [c]taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

      Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

      Qur'an 7:99—Are they then safe from Allah's deception? No one feels safe from Allah's deception except those that shall perish.

      Qur'an 8:30—And (remember) when the unbelievers plotted deception against you (O Muhammad), to imprison you, or kill you, or expel you. They plotted deception, but Allah also plotted deception; and Allah is the best of deceivers.

      In fact, according to the Koran the reason people believe that Jesus was crucified was because Allah deceived us all!

      4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

      According to the Koran Allah deceived his own followers.

      8:43 Remember in thy dream Allah showed them to thee as few: if He had shown them to thee as many, ye would surely have been discouraged, and ye would surely have disputed in (your) decision; but Allah saved (you): for He knoweth well the (secrets) of (all) hearts.
      44 And remember when ye met, He showed them to you as few in your eyes, and He made you appear as contemptible in their eyes: that Allah might accomplish a matter already enacted. For to Allah do all questions go back (for decision).

      Compare this to God's action in the Old Testament with Gideon.

      Judges 7:1-8New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      Gideon’s 300 Chosen Men
      7 Then Jerubbaal (that is, Gideon) and all the people who were with him, rose early and camped beside [a]the spring of Harod; and the camp of Midian was on the north side of [b]them by the hill of Moreh in the valley.

      2 The Lord said to Gideon, “The people who are with you are too many for Me to give Midian into their hands, for Israel [c]would become boastful, saying, ‘My own [d]power has delivered me.’ 3 Now therefore [e]come, proclaim in the hearing of the people, saying, ‘Whoever is afraid and trembling, let him return and depart from Mount Gilead.’” So 22,000 people returned, but 10,000 remained.

      4 Then the Lord said to Gideon, “The people are still too many; bring them down to the water and I will test them for you there. Therefore it shall be that he of whom I say to you, ‘This one shall go with you,’ he shall go with you; but everyone of whom I say to you, ‘This one shall not go with you,’ he shall not go.” 5 So he brought the people down to the water. And the Lord said to Gideon, “You shall separate everyone who laps the water with his tongue as a dog laps, as well as everyone who kneels to drink.” 6 Now the number of those who lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, was 300 men; but all the rest of the people kneeled to drink water. 7 The Lord said to Gideon, “I will deliver you with the 300 men who lapped and will give the Midianites into your hands; so let all the other people go, each man to his [f]home.” 8 So [g]the 300 men took the people’s provisions and their trumpets into their hands. And [h]Gideon sent all the other men of Israel, each to his tent, but retained the 300 men; and the camp of Midian was below him in the valley.

      God the Father loved all mankind so much that He sent Jesus while were were still in our sins, Allah doesn't love unbelievers, he only loves people who do certain things.

      Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

      Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

      John 3:15-17New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      15 so that whoever [a]believes will in Him have eternal life.

      16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [b]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

      Romans 5:8 [Full Chapter]
      But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

      The Allah of the Koran, and the God of the Bible are fundamentally different. To say they are the same is either done out of ignorance, or out of lies.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by elam View Post
        Here is a more or less balanced article that asks "Does Pope Francis Believe Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?".
        http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-same-god.html

        There has been a lot of anti-RCC rubbish written by protestant bigots over the years but if given the opportunity I would ask these guys if they reject the direct teachings of Jesus Christ concerning to whom we are to pray?
        Probably more or less balanced but certainly shallow on the theology of Islam and Christianity. I concur with Cerebrum123 that there are significant differences in how the two religions describe the personality of God. Those differences make it questionable they are the same God.
        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

        Comment


        • #5
          Having read the article, I don't think my opinion has changed. The author seems to be saying "Well they're both monotheists, right? Isn't that enough?"

          I could agree that "Muslim worship the same God as Christians, and Christians worship this God in his fullness" kind of argument if Islam did *not* have an explicit denial of the Trinity and weren't so offended by the implications of the phrase "God crucified."

          I could accept "ah ha, but no one truly knows what God is" if appealing to that premise wasn't so self-defeating on this issue.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jin-roh View Post
            I could accept "ah ha, but no one truly knows what God is" if appealing to that premise wasn't so self-defeating on this issue.
            It is certainly true that if God had not revealed Himself, some form of agnosticism would be the best we could do. The struggle for each of us is determining which way did God reveal Himself in. I certainly believe there are false revelations. In some ways, a position that says God has revealed Himself in all religions is a lazy way out of the problem.
            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

            Comment


            • #7
              IMHO, pluralism (in general) is never truly "All religions are equally true, because god is dimly revealed in someway in all of them." But rather "All religions are equally dimwitted, and because the god posited by the pluralists is the one true god."

              And to be clear, I'd have no problem saying that Islam passionately pursues knowledge of God. I can understand that Islam-to-Christian converts (and Christian missionaries) understand the conversation process not as renunciation of a false idol, but rather a fuller and complete clarification of God.

              It breaks down at a logical level though, and articles like this are only making it worse.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jin-roh View Post
                Having read the article, I don't think my opinion has changed. The author seems to be saying "Well they're both monotheists, right? Isn't that enough?"

                I could agree that "Muslim worship the same God as Christians, and Christians worship this God in his fullness" kind of argument if Islam did *not* have an explicit denial of the Trinity and weren't so offended by the implications of the phrase "God crucified."

                I could accept "ah ha, but no one truly knows what God is" if appealing to that premise wasn't so self-defeating on this issue.
                Here is what I will accept. The ORIGINS of each religion is based on the same God, Jehovah. Yet the concepts of that God is radically different in each religion. Basically Islam is as much a cult as any other cult. They remake God into something he is not. The "god" they end up with has no resemblance to the real God. They deny the Trinity, the very nature of God and replace him with a "fake God" with an entirely different nature.

                It would be like if we have a group of people who accepted George Washington as the father of the country, but insisted he was a black woman who was a wiccan and cast spells on the british to drive them out. That would not be the real George Washington at all. Allah is not the same God that Christians worship.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jin-roh View Post
                  I could agree that "Muslim worship the same God as Christians, and Christians worship this God in his fullness" kind of argument if Islam did *not* have an explicit denial of the Trinity and weren't so offended by the implications of the phrase "God crucified."
                  Do you believe that Jews worship a different god?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Do you believe that Jews worship a different god?
                    I think Jews worship an incomplete version of God. They have not changed his nature into a different God like the muslims have.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      I think Jews worship an incomplete version of God. They have not changed his nature into a different God like the muslims have.
                      Ok, but specifically, we don't say that they worship another god even though they also explicitly deny the trinity. So denying the trinity doesn't seem to be the litmus test (at least by itself) for figuring out whether or not someone worships a god other than the one we do.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        Ok, but specifically, we don't say that they worship another god even though they also explicitly deny the trinity. So denying the trinity doesn't seem to be the litmus test (at least by itself) for figuring out whether or not someone worships a god other than the one we do.
                        True, not by itself. But Islam changes the very characteristics of God into some vindictive trickster. More like Loki than Jehovah. They leave nothing of the real Jehovah in the Koran, other than a few nods to some historical events, which they also change.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          True, not by itself. But Islam changes the very characteristics of God into some vindictive trickster. More like Loki than Jehovah. They leave nothing of the real Jehovah in the Koran, other than a few nods to some historical events, which they also change.
                          I agree that the Muslim god has characteristics that are very unlike the Christian one, but it might be a bit hyperbolic to say that they leave nothing of the real Jehovah in the Koran. The Koran teaches that Allah is almighty/omnipotent. That he alone is worthy of worship. That there is none like him. That he is the creator of everything and everyone. That his message is often delivered through prophets. That he is spirit. That he is the judge of mankind, but that he is also merciful. That he forgives people their sins if they repent. That he is patient and compassionate. That people can call upon him for help. That he is the source of peace. That he is eternal and everlasting. That he is all wise. That his laws are immutable. That he is watchful and interested in the affairs of mankind. That he cannot be fully comprehended, and many other things besides.

                          Of course, as Cerebrum has indicated, the Quran also teaches that he holds some contradictory traits that Christians believe the God of the Bible does not hold. So for instance, Allah is the deceiver, he is the destroyer, he is the subduer, the giver of dishonor, the abaser, and the like.

                          How much of Allah's negative attributes are simply a matter of context, I don't know. I think as Christians we sometimes have to be careful about how we pull things from the Koran without fully understanding the context, because as we all know, skeptics do the same to the Bible all the time. Skeptics can find passages that make the God of the Bible sound like a destroyer, a deceiver, an author of evil, and the like. So I think we should be wary not to fall into the same sort of simplistic thinking about these things.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            I agree that the Muslim god has characteristics that are very unlike the Christian one, but it might be a bit hyperbolic to say that they leave nothing of the real Jehovah in the Koran. The Koran teaches that Allah is almighty/omnipotent. That he alone is worthy of worship. That there is none like him. That he is the creator of everything and everyone. That his message is often delivered through prophets. That he is spirit. That he is the judge of mankind, but that he is also merciful. That he forgives people their sins if they repent. That he is patient and compassionate. That people can call upon him for help. That he is the source of peace. That he is eternal and everlasting. That he is all wise. That his laws are immutable. That he is watchful and interested in the affairs of mankind. That he cannot be fully comprehended, and many other things besides.
                            most of which most religions would say of their own Gods. Zeus, Aten, Jupiter.
                            It is his actions that show his character. And his words. Not merely physical (spiritual) characteristics.

                            Of course, as Cerebrum has indicated, the Quran also teaches that he holds some contradictory traits that Christians believe the God of the Bible does not hold. So for instance, Allah is the deceiver, he is the destroyer, he is the subduer, the giver of dishonor, the abaser, and the like.
                            yeah. those contradictory traits pretty much rule him out as YHWH.

                            How much of Allah's negative attributes are simply a matter of context, I don't know. I think as Christians we sometimes have to be careful about how we pull things from the Koran without fully understanding the context, because as we all know, skeptics do the same to the Bible all the time. Skeptics can find passages that make the God of the Bible sound like a destroyer, a deceiver, an author of evil, and the like. So I think we should be wary not to fall into the same sort of simplistic thinking about these things.
                            This is true. So we need to look at Islam's own writings about the Koran and how it's followers react and believe about Allah to see. And doing so, I think we pretty much have nailed it on the head. The Allah of Islam is not peaceful, or honest, or loving. And that is reflected in the majority of Islam's followers in their very own lands. If Islam is the religion of peace, why is there no peace in the lands controlled by Islam? It has constantly been in a state of war since Islam started. It STARTED in war as Mohammad subjugated people and forced them to become muslim or die. Because Allah told him to do it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              most of which most religions would say of their own Gods. Zeus, Aten, Jupiter.
                              Those are not very good examples I don't think. For example, none of those gods were said to have been the creator of everything, to having been eternal (they themselves were created), to necessarily being spirit, for having patience, for being the source of peace, to being all wise, and the like.

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              It is his actions that show his character. And his words. Not merely physical (spiritual) characteristics.
                              I agree.


                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              This is true. So we need to look at Islam's own writings about the Koran and how it's followers react and believe about Allah to see. And doing so, I think we pretty much have nailed it on the head. The Allah of Islam is not peaceful, or honest, or loving. And that is reflected in the majority of Islam's followers in their very own lands. If Islam is the religion of peace, why is there no peace in the lands controlled by Islam? It has constantly been in a state of war since Islam started. It STARTED in war as Mohammad subjugated people and forced them to become muslim or die. Because Allah told him to do it.
                              While I agree with this to a degree, again, a skeptic too could look at the Christian past and point out that there were plenty of periods where Christians have not always been peaceful, honest, or loving, and they can point to passages in, say, the Old Testament as evidence that Christian behavior is modeled after God. They may be able to find Islamic nations that are peaceful (they exist), or look back into history where Islamic nations ruled in relative peace.

                              To be clear, I'm not saying they are right, but we have be on guard that we don't find ourselves using the same tired old skeptical arguments that are used against us. We have to be better than that.

                              Comment

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