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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Pope Francis: Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI think you are getting off track here. The topic is the God of Islam the same God as our God. I am sure the answer is "no" for reasons already given by me and others.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostDo you believe that Jews worship a different god?
I would accept that they they worship God in an incomplete sense. Thing is, they have chronology (they existed prior to Christianity), covenant (God made a covenant with Abraham and his seed, meaning Christ.) which includes the entire context in which the Gospels were understood it. There's additional connection between Christianity and OT prophecy, the psalms, and so forth.
Judaism, prior to Christianity, did not have an explicit denial of either the Trinity or Incarnation... though it obviously the Jewish community denies them both now.
Islam doesn't have this same chronology or covenant connection with Christianity. I'm sure many Muslims would protest that point, but it remains. The OT look forwarded to Christ. Christ is perfection. There is no other prophet or additional covenant after him.
I guess the easiest point way to put it is: Yes, I believe the 'same god' who worked in the history of Judaism that did in Christianity. I do not accept that this same god had anything to do with Islam. At least not, in anyway beyond extremely generalized since that "God works in all of History" or something.
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Originally posted by Jin-roh View PostWhich ones? I think Judaism today is spiritual and theologically distinct form Judaism is the old testament.
I would accept that they they worship God in an incomplete sense. Thing is, they have chronology (they existed prior to Christianity), covenant (God made a covenant with Abraham and his seed, meaning Christ.) which includes the entire context in which the Gospels were understood it. There's additional connection between Christianity and OT prophecy, the psalms, and so forth.
Judaism, prior to Christianity, did not have an explicit denial of either the Trinity or Incarnation... though it obviously the Jewish community denies them both now.
Islam doesn't have this same chronology or covenant connection with Christianity. I'm sure many Muslims would protest that point, but it remains. The OT look forwarded to Christ. Christ is perfection. There is no other prophet or additional covenant after him.
I guess the easiest point way to put it is: Yes, I believe the 'same god' who worked in the history of Judaism that did in Christianity. I do not accept that this same god had anything to do with Islam. At least not, in anyway beyond extremely generalized since that "God works in all of History" or something.
yeah that is an important part. God (YHWH) "started" both Judaism and Christianity. He did NOT start Islam. If anyone (spirit being) did, it was Satan. Or just the ramblings of a man. Islam claims to be based on the same God as the bible, and I am sure the muslims believe that, but the God revealed in the Koran is not the God of Christianity or Judaism. He is a counterfeit.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI think the answer is "maybe", or "probably yes". So, especially in evangelism we want to find common ground, and telling a Muslim that they don't believe in God strikes me as the wrong way of going about that. Also, I've read of a number of accounts where Muslims convert to Christianity through dreams and the like, and I don't ever remembering any of them saying something like they abandoned the God of their faith, rather they tend to intimate that they had always believed in God, and now they have a better understanding of him.
Sahih Muslim 6622
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said:
By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.
Sahih al-Bukhari 6227
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Allah created Adam in His picture, sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." Adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet (ﷺ) added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and picture of Adam Since then the creation of Adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time."
That's saying that Adam was formed to look like Allah. There's much more to it than this, but this should be enough to show that many of the claims Muslims make about Allah are false, and that the Allah of the Koran is not the God of the Bible. It's closer to Mormonism actually.
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Originally posted by Jin-roh View PostWhich ones? I think Judaism today is spiritual and theologically distinct form Judaism is the old testament.
Originally posted by Jin-roh View PostI would accept that they they worship God in an incomplete sense. Thing is, they have chronology (they existed prior to Christianity), covenant (God made a covenant with Abraham and his seed, meaning Christ.) which includes the entire context in which the Gospels were understood it. There's additional connection between Christianity and OT prophecy, the psalms, and so forth.
Judaism, prior to Christianity, did not have an explicit denial of either the Trinity or Incarnation... though it obviously the Jewish community denies them both now.
Islam doesn't have this same chronology or covenant connection with Christianity. I'm sure many Muslims would protest that point, but it remains. The OT look forwarded to Christ. Christ is perfection. There is no other prophet or additional covenant after him.
I guess the easiest point way to put it is: Yes, I believe the 'same god' who worked in the history of Judaism that did in Christianity. I do not accept that this same god had anything to do with Islam. At least not, in anyway beyond extremely generalized since that "God works in all of History" or something.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostIt's closer to Mormonism actually.
And both religions are basically cults of Christianity. If I recall, Mohammad's aunt was an unorthodox Christian and he got a lot of ideas from her.
Both also claimed to be revealed by angels to some special Prophet and that angel gave them a book that contradicts the bible.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostTrue. The God of Mormonism is not the God of the Bible either although they claim he is.
And both religions are basically cults of Christianity. If I recall, Mohammad's aunt was an unorthodox Christian and he got a lot of ideas from her.
Both also claimed to be revealed by angels to some special Prophet and that angel gave them a book that contradicts the bible.
ETA: Waraqa might have been her uncle. It's been a long time since I've read about him, and I'm going on my memory here.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostI know his wife Khadija's brother Waraqa was supposedly a Christian, and given some stuff he said likely unorthodox. I don't remember reading about an aunt who was unorthodox, but it wouldn't surprise me.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostIf you go to the Sahih Hadith you find out that the Allah of the Koran is also very anthropomorphic, that he wants us sin, and some other really weird things.
Sahih Muslim 6622
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said:
By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.
Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostSahih al-Bukhari 6227
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Allah created Adam in His picture, sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." Adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet (ﷺ) added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and picture of Adam Since then the creation of Adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time."
That's saying that Adam was formed to look like Allah. There's much more to it than this, but this should be enough to show that many of the claims Muslims make about Allah are false, and that the Allah of the Koran is not the God of the Bible. It's closer to Mormonism actually.
The Prophet’s words, “Adam was created in His image” means that Allaah created Adam in His image, for He has a face, an eye, a hand, and a foot, and Adam had a face, an eye, a hand, and a foot… but that does not mean that these things are exactly the same. There is some similarity, but it is not exactly the same. Similarly the first group to enter Paradise are likened to the moon, but they are not exactly the same. This confirms the view of Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaa'ah, who say that none of the attributes of Allaah can be likened to the attributes of created beings, without distorting or misinterpreting, or discussing how or likening Him to His creation.
I don't really buy it, but there you have it.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI was referring to modern Jews.
I'm sorry. Even after your summary I'm having a hard time untangling what you're trying to say here. From what I'm gathering, you believe that, even though modern Jews strongly reject the trinity and would be offended by "God crucified", because of their ancestral link to Old Testament Jews (who did not know about the trinity) they are in the clear, where a Muslim would not be. Is that what you're saying?
Additionally, when Jewish people celebrate passover, they celebrate an act of God that Christians worship. Therefore, in sense, when Jewish folks worship God, it can be accurately said that they worship the God of Christianity yet not in its fullness. This, I think, is true even with an explicit denial of the Trinity by any Jewish people living today. The books of Exodus, and the Rest of the OT remain important to Christians as we discuss "God." I could see how it would be logically consistent for Judaism to accuse Christianity of having a false god, but not the other way around.
Islam doesn't have this going for it, in my opinion. The Qur'an, and everything that may or may not have happened in it, occurred after Christianity. It does, at its core, contain explicit details of core Christian tenants. It cannot claim, as Judaism can, a common spiritual and theological history with Christian tradition, because Gospels, acts, and the rest of the New Testament did germinate in the context of Islam.. after all ...Islam wasn't around.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWell first of all, this isn't from the Koran directly, but as you pointed out, from a collection of Hadith whose truthfulness some Muslims dispute. But anyways, this verse honestly sounds a lot like its mimicking those Biblical passages that refer to God opposing the proud, the arrogant, and those with a Pharisaical heart who are puffed up in their own self-righteousness, and how God would come into covenant relationship with those who humble themselves and ask for forgiveness. A couple minutes of googling confirmed that that is the apologetic that is used for this passage. I'm not saying that's an accurate exegesis of the passage (maybe it is, maybe it isn't, I don't know), but again, I think we need to be wary that we don't fall into the same habits as the typical skeptic does when critiquing us.
It's a case of Allah not loving anyone until they first love him. Until you become a Muslim Allah does not love you, which is not how God acts in the New Testament, or even the Old Testament. Even when Israel was disobedient God still loved them, even if He did punish them.
Again, this isn't from the Koran, but from a collection of Hadith. It's obviously a riff off of Genesis 1:27. The apologetic defense for this one is,
The Prophet’s words, “Adam was created in His image” means that Allaah created Adam in His image, for He has a face, an eye, a hand, and a foot, and Adam had a face, an eye, a hand, and a foot… but that does not mean that these things are exactly the same. There is some similarity, but it is not exactly the same. Similarly the first group to enter Paradise are likened to the moon, but they are not exactly the same. This confirms the view of Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaa'ah, who say that none of the attributes of Allaah can be likened to the attributes of created beings, without distorting or misinterpreting, or discussing how or likening Him to His creation.
I don't really buy it, but there you have it.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
It's a case of Allah not loving anyone until they first love him. Until you become a Muslim Allah does not love you, which is not how God acts in the New Testament, or even the Old Testament. Even when Israel was disobedient God still loved them, even if He did punish them.
The Sahih Hadith are considered authoritative in Sunni and Shia Islam, and they are the vast majority of Muslims. Dismissing the Hadith, simply because they aren't the Koran is a mistake, even for Muslims. Without them you wouldn't have Islam as we know it today. Several of the Pillars of Islam are only known because of the Hadith. Some consider the sahih Hadith to be of equal authority with the Koran.
At any rate, as you can see, these things are not so clear cut as we'd like to sometimes think they are. There are differing interpretations on sacred texts, and even disagreement over their reliability. These are things a Christian would definitely want to keep in mind if they were to debate a Muslim, or attempt to evangelize to the Muslim community I think.
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