Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Pope Francis: Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    IIRC you get to live in a massive pearl around 60 miles in diameter.
    That's boring.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      I simply repeated to you what Muslims themselves have said on the subject.
      Yeah, Muslim apologetics are kind of known for being bad, or ignoring things, or twisting things.

      The Muslim websites I'm reading on the subject state that many Muslims, especially Shia, either outright reject Sahih texts, or that they and other Muslims find Hadith in general to range from highly reliable to unreliable or contradictory. Is there any particular book on the subject you might recommend if that isn't accurate?

      At any rate, as you can see, these things are not so clear cut as we'd like to sometimes think they are. There are differing interpretations on sacred texts, and even disagreement over their reliability. These are things a Christian would definitely want to keep in mind if they were to debate a Muslim, or attempt to evangelize to the Muslim community I think.
      It's a very recent phenomenon when it comes to rejecting Sahih Hadith. Without the Sahih Hadith you don't have Mohammed's Sunnah, without that you can't obey the Koran's command to follow the Sunnah. In fact, early on they were considered the same thing. Many Muslims will reject* weak/daif hadith, which are those with a questionable isnad, or chain of transmission. The whole point of works like Sahih al-Bukhari, and Sahih Muslim are to identify those which are authentic, and therefor authoritative.
      The Hadith are like a decoder ring for the Koran, without it you have an incomprehensible mess. It's still a mess when you have both, but not nearly as impossible to understand as without it.

      You're falling into a different skeptical position. The one that sees disagreement today, and basically makes it seem as if certain widely agreed upon things aren't that big of a deal because of a small group of people very recently started disputing it. I hate saying this, but reading your posts lately is like watching Starlight try and say there is nothing in the Bible against homosexuality. Sure, you can find a handful of scholars disputing this today, but the overwhelming consensus in Christianity has been that homosexual sex is a sin for a very long time. So too the fact that the Sahih Hadith are authoritative in Islam.

      *When it's something that paints Islam in an unfavorable light, if it looks good, I've often seen them go ahead and use it like it's sahih.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Cerebrum123
        Yeah, Muslim apologetics are kind of known for being bad, or ignoring things, or twisting things.
        I've seen plenty of Christian apologists do that as well.

        As for the OP, I believe Muslims worship the same God as we do. And I agree with Adrift, that if they don't, then neither should we claim that the jews worship the same God as we do. Christ himself was fairly strict on the matter and left little wriggle room in the end. Whoever rejected Him, also rejected the one who sent Him.

        In so far as a Muslim is kneeling down and address God, the one true God, the Creator of the universe, then it is impossible for the Muslim to be referring to anything other than God, even if that Muslim has a heretical understanding of God.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
          Yeah, Muslim apologetics are kind of known for being bad, or ignoring things, or twisting things.



          It's a very recent phenomenon when it comes to rejecting Sahih Hadith. Without the Sahih Hadith you don't have Mohammed's Sunnah, without that you can't obey the Koran's command to follow the Sunnah. In fact, early on they were considered the same thing. Many Muslims will reject* weak/daif hadith, which are those with a questionable isnad, or chain of transmission. The whole point of works like Sahih al-Bukhari, and Sahih Muslim are to identify those which are authentic, and therefor authoritative.
          The Hadith are like a decoder ring for the Koran, without it you have an incomprehensible mess. It's still a mess when you have both, but not nearly as impossible to understand as without it.

          You're falling into a different skeptical position. The one that sees disagreement today, and basically makes it seem as if certain widely agreed upon things aren't that big of a deal because of a small group of people very recently started disputing it. I hate saying this, but reading your posts lately is like watching Starlight try and say there is nothing in the Bible against homosexuality. Sure, you can find a handful of scholars disputing this today, but the overwhelming consensus in Christianity has been that homosexual sex is a sin for a very long time. So too the fact that the Sahih Hadith are authoritative in Islam.

          *When it's something that paints Islam in an unfavorable light, if it looks good, I've often seen them go ahead and use it like it's sahih.
          Let us not over look the Muslim of doctrine of al Taqiyya

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            You're falling into a different skeptical position. The one that sees disagreement today, and basically makes it seem as if certain widely agreed upon things aren't that big of a deal because of a small group of people very recently started disputing it. I hate saying this, but reading your posts lately is like watching Starlight try and say there is nothing in the Bible against homosexuality. Sure, you can find a handful of scholars disputing this today, but the overwhelming consensus in Christianity has been that homosexual sex is a sin for a very long time. So too the fact that the Sahih Hadith are authoritative in Islam.
            I realize that this is a subject you're very passionate about, but my view on this is purely from an evangelistic perspective. I, myself, am not saying that such and such passage does or does not say whatever. I'm reading what modern Islamic apologists are saying about their very own texts. If we seek to talk to Muslims, and find common ground so that we can share our faith with them, it seems to me that we must understand their text as they understand the text, otherwise we're doing precisely what skeptics do every time they comb through the Old Testament to tell us why God is evil, why he commanded genocide, why he condoned rape, why he condoned slavery, and that Christians believed that God condoned these things for centuries, and that is why they themselves felt no remorse for committing war, and genocide, and slavery, etc. I am concerned that Christians fall into that exact same trap, and we end up doing exactly what is done to us. Do you understand that concern, and do you think there is anything legitimate about it?

            Comment


            • #36
              There is as great a difference between a Wahabi Muslim and a Sunni Muslim, as there is between, a Baptist and a Roman Catholic.

              I would not dare tell either group how they ought to read their own scriptures when they read it differently. An exegetical discussion can be had, but I think it's foolish to do evangelism by telling a Muslim that he's not being a proper Wahabi. Textual criticism, moral argumentation, etc... those are perfectly valid and have some use in discussions.

              Though really when it comes to evangelizing it's rarely those things that come up. The Muslim I saw who converted was falling in love with Christ, which is the natural way into the Church. Quite possibly the only way in the end.

              I agree with St. Thomas Aquinas that apologetics serves mostly to bolster the confidence of believers, rather than creating them.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                There is as great a difference between a Wahabi Muslim and a Sunni Muslim, as there is between, a Baptist and a Roman Catholic.

                I would not dare tell either group how they ought to read their own scriptures when they read it differently. An exegetical discussion can be had, but I think it's foolish to do evangelism by telling a Muslim that he's not being a proper Wahabi. Textual criticism, moral argumentation, etc... those are perfectly valid and have some use in discussions.

                Though really when it comes to evangelizing it's rarely those things that come up. The Muslim I saw who converted was falling in love with Christ, which is the natural way into the Church. Quite possibly the only way in the end.

                I agree with St. Thomas Aquinas that apologetics serves mostly to bolster the confidence of believers, rather than creating them.
                Eh, I've seen apologetics work powerfully in evangelism. But the rest I wholeheartedly agree with.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Eh, I've seen apologetics work powerfully in evangelism. But the rest I wholeheartedly agree with.
                  Ravi Zacharias did an apologetics talk a fortnight ago in Auckland, and there were a number of people who responded to the altar call he gave at the end.

                  Here's the link if you're interested. Mark Powell, a local Apologist talks first
                  Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                  1 Corinthians 16:13

                  "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                  -Ben Witherington III

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    If they are the same God, will believing in and putting your faith in the Muslim God save you? If not, they are not the same God.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      If they are the same God, will believing in and putting your faith in the Muslim God save you? If not, they are not the same God.
                      Will believing and putting faith in God save modern Jews who reject Jesus? The Bible suggests that, no, faith in God without Christ is not enough, and yet many of us will admit that they believe in the same God. Maybe my perspective on this issue is unique though. The Way was an anti-trinity cult, yet I feel that the God I believe in and put my faith in today was the same God that I believed in and put my faith in back when I was a Way leaf (the term for an individual Way believer). When I became an orthodox Christian I realized that my understanding of God was heavily flawed. When I've witnessed to Mormon's I've never used the tact "you believe in an entirely different God than I do". What I found that worked in my own evangelism is pointing out that their understanding of God and Jesus is distorted, not that they don't believe in God or Jesus at all. Do you understand where I'm coming from, or do you believe that this is an ineffective evangelistic method? Have you found it personally easier to start from scratch in evangelism, and tell people that they don't know anything about the real God at all, or that they believe and have faith in a being that shares almost no similitude with the Christian God?
                      Last edited by Adrift; 03-10-2017, 08:24 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        Will believing and putting faith in God save modern Jews who reject Jesus? The Bible suggests that, no, faith in God without Christ is not enough, and yet many of us will admit that they believe in the same God. Maybe my perspective on this issue is unique though. The Way was an anti-trinity cult, yet I feel that the God I believe in and put my faith in today was the same God that I believed in and put my faith in back when I was a Way leaf (the term for an individual Way believer). When I became an orthodox Christian I realized that my understanding of God was heavily flawed. When I've witnessed to Mormon's I've never used the tact "you believe in an entirely different God than I do". What I found that worked in my own evangelism is pointing out that their understanding of God and Jesus is distorted, not that they don't believe in God or Jesus at all. Do you understand where I'm coming from, or do you believe that this is an ineffective evangelistic method? Have you found it personally easier to start from scratch in evangelism, and tell people that they don't know anything about the real God at all, or that they believe and have faith in a being that shares almost no similitude with the Christian God?
                        Who revealed himself to mankind and started Judaism?

                        Who revealed himself to the jews and started Christianity?

                        Who revealed himself to Joseph Smith and started Mormonism?

                        Who revealed himself to Mohammad and started Islam?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Who revealed himself to mankind and started Judaism?

                          Who revealed himself to the jews and started Christianity?

                          Who revealed himself to Joseph Smith and started Mormonism?

                          Who revealed himself to Mohammad and started Islam?
                          I don't understand the relevance of this post, and why you didn't answer my questions. I no longer believe that God truly revealed himself to Dr. Paul Wierwille, nor that Dr. Wierwille was a second Paul the Apostle (as we once characterized him), yet I still believe that the God I believe in today is the same God that Way members claim to believe in. I simply believe that the Way believer has a highly distorted and incomplete understanding of God. Again, do you understand how pointing this out would help in evangelism, or have you personally found it more effective to go into evangelism with the view that the person you're witnessing to does not believe in the same God at all?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            I don't understand the relevance of this post, and why you didn't answer my questions. I no longer believe that God truly revealed himself to Dr. Paul Wierwille, nor that Dr. Wierwille was a second Paul the Apostle (as we once characterized him), yet I still believe that the God I believe in today is the same God that Way members claim to believe in. I simply believe that the Way believer has a highly distorted and incomplete understanding of God. Again, do you understand how pointing this out would help in evangelism, or have you personally found it more effective to go into evangelism with the view that the person you're witnessing to does not believe in the same God at all?
                            Because either those cults were started by God, by man, or by Satan. So assume that a spiritual being did reveal the religion to those men and gave them a new book, a book that basically twisted what the bible said into knots and had the adherents believing nonsense about the creator of the universe. That would NOT be a religion that believed in the God of the bible. That would be a religion that believed in a false God, made in the image of the real God. An idol. Just because a group claims they believe in the same God as Christians doesn't make it true. They can call their false god, Jehovah, or YHWH or Allah. And they can say that it is the same God as the God of Abraham, and none of it is true.

                            No more than if I said I believed in George Washington and then proceeded to say he was a black woman who came from Africa and disguised herself to be a white general and became the first president. The George Washington I believed in would be a false one. Not the same one as the real one at all. I just believe in a lie and give it the same name as the first president. If later I find out about the real GW, and come to believe that, can I still honestly say "Oh I always believed in George Washington, I just didn't know the right details" - heck no. The GW I believed in was entirely made up and the only resemblance to the real GW was the name and the title "First President"

                            Allah is NOT a real God. The God of Mormons is not a real God. They are nothing but false Gods, given a makeover to appear to be the same God as the real God. Their origins were not even from God as was the God of Judaism and Christianity. God did not reveal himself to Mohammad or Joseph Smith. Either they made everything up themselves, or an evil spirit revealed it to them. Either way, the result is a false religion, taught by false teachers, about a false God.

                            Merely claiming their God is the same God as our God doesn't make it so. Merely saying their God and our God created the universe and Adam and Eve doesn't make it the same God. They have a false God. I have no idea why you are defending Islam as believing in the true God. No I don't think the God of Mormonism is the true God. No I don't think the God of Jehovah's Witnesses is the true God. No I don't think the God of the Way is the True God. They are all false Gods dressed up to look like the true God, but they are idols.
                            Last edited by Sparko; 03-10-2017, 10:48 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              2 John 1:

                              9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

                              10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;

                              11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
                              1Corinthians 1:

                              23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
                              24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
                              25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
                              Anything more or less is a different Christ, a different gospel, and there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved.


                              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                I've seen plenty of Christian apologists do that as well.
                                I didn't say there weren't any bad Christian apologists, just that Islamic apologetics as far as I've seen does it as a rule. The closest I've seen to a Muslim apologist taking things seriously would be Shabir Ally.

                                As for the OP, I believe Muslims worship the same God as we do. And I agree with Adrift, that if they don't, then neither should we claim that the jews worship the same God as we do. Christ himself was fairly strict on the matter and left little wriggle room in the end. Whoever rejected Him, also rejected the one who sent Him.

                                In so far as a Muslim is kneeling down and address God, the one true God, the Creator of the universe, then it is impossible for the Muslim to be referring to anything other than God, even if that Muslim has a heretical understanding of God.
                                Which is the reason that I would say modern Jews don't worship the same God as Christians. The Golden Calf incident comes to mind. They are saved from Egypt by God, but when Moses is gone for a short while they start ascribing said works to it. This time God incarnated to reveal Himself to them, and they rejected Him.

                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                I realize that this is a subject you're very passionate about, but my view on this is purely from an evangelistic perspective. I, myself, am not saying that such and such passage does or does not say whatever. I'm reading what modern Islamic apologists are saying about their very own texts.
                                There is the major part of your problem. You're looking at what certain modern apologists are saying, rather than looking at the source material. If we want to understand the texts we need to go to the source material. You're currently waving away some of said source material because a few Muslims today have become embarrassed about what it says, and would rather just reject all Hadith. I've already outlined why it's bad for them, as Muslims to do this earlier, but I'll give another example of why it's so bad.
                                Think of it like this. Take one of the Bible translations that has Jesus' own words in red text, and the rest of the Gospels in black. The red text would be equivalent to the Koran, while the black text in the Gospels would be the Hadith. How much understanding are you going to get of Christianity if you only read the red text? You'll have some of the basics, but you won't have any context. Oddly enough if you did this you would likely understand more about Christianity than you would about Islam from reading the Koran only.

                                If we seek to talk to Muslims, and find common ground so that we can share our faith with them, it seems to me that we must understand their text as they understand the text, otherwise we're doing precisely what skeptics do every time they comb through the Old Testament to tell us why God is evil, why he commanded genocide, why he condoned rape, why he condoned slavery, and that Christians believed that God condoned these things for centuries, and that is why they themselves felt no remorse for committing war, and genocide, and slavery, etc. I am concerned that Christians fall into that exact same trap, and we end up doing exactly what is done to us. Do you understand that concern, and do you think there is anything legitimate about it?
                                I understand your concern, although I think it's way off on this one. We need to understand the text as it was intended. Not by how some might read it today. Islam is very much tied up in things like the Sunna, Sharia, and other concepts that you don't get from reading the Koran. We have to go to these other sources to even approach what would be a "common ground" that you want. These other sources would be the Sira, Hadith, and Tafsir.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                There is as great a difference between a Wahabi Muslim and a Sunni Muslim, as there is between, a Baptist and a Roman Catholic. I would not dare tell either group how they ought to read their own scriptures when they read it differently. An exegetical discussion can be had, but I think it's foolish to do evangelism by telling a Muslim that he's not being a proper Wahabi. Textual criticism, moral argumentation, etc... those are perfectly valid and have some use in discussions.

                                Though really when it comes to evangelizing it's rarely those things that come up. The Muslim I saw who converted was falling in love with Christ, which is the natural way into the Church. Quite possibly the only way in the end.

                                I agree with St. Thomas Aquinas that apologetics serves mostly to bolster the confidence of believers, rather than creating them.
                                Yet you're fine with saying stuff like this.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                "Not true Christians"

                                That depends on what you mean. From my perspective, no one outside of the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church is "true Christians." That's if you define the term in the narrowest sense of those people explicitly having the faith that Christ taught to the apostles, and that the Church Fathers themselves would have considered Christians.

                                The typical hallmark though between evangelicals and Christian fellowship is whether people agree to the Nicene Creed. In that matter, they don't fall through, as they recognize it as far as I have been able to tell.

                                I consider them a dangerous Christian cult, run by a whack leader, who is clearly a false prophet drunk with power.
                                To me, your second reply I'm quoting from this thread basically says that there is no correct interpretation of said scriptures for either Muslims or Christians. Now, I don't think that's what you are intending to say, that's the only way I can read the above. In fact, it doesn't square at all with your own comment about "true Christians". If there is a correct interpretation, and I'm sure we both believe there is for both Christianity, and Islam, then we need to focus on that interpretation ourselves, and those we are discussing should want to know it as well. If a Muslim isn't willing to take their own scriptures seriously, then I have no reason to expect them to take the Bible seriously in a discussion.
                                Besides, I think the best way to get a Muslim to leave Islam is for them to see what the Koran, and Hadith say. Especially since the Koran commands Muslims to seriously inquire about the Torah and Injeel(or Gospel). Get them to seriously look at the Bible as a whole, and then they will be able to see why the Koran is false.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Thoughtful Monk, 03-15-2024, 06:19 PM
                                35 responses
                                166 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by KingsGambit, 03-15-2024, 02:12 PM
                                4 responses
                                49 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                                Started by Chaotic Void, 03-08-2024, 07:36 AM
                                10 responses
                                119 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post mikewhitney  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 02-29-2024, 07:55 AM
                                14 responses
                                71 views
                                3 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 02-28-2024, 11:56 AM
                                13 responses
                                60 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Working...
                                X