Creation and the Angels - and their ranks?

[mitzi]

Philosophers, Kabbalists, & Modern Jews
(Messengers of God who appear in traditional texts--but discomfort some Jewish thinkers)

The medieval thinkers, though, believing in the existence of angels as found in the Bible and the rabbinic literature, tend to interpret the whole subject of angelology in a highly spiritual and more or less rationalistic manner. According to Maimonides, angels are creatures possessing form without matter. They are pure spirits differentiated from one another not by any bodily distinctions but solely by spiritual form and purpose.

LINK

Looking at angels
by: Rabbi Jeremy Rosen
LINK

Maimonides say about angels, LINK

[mitzi]

Philosophers, Kabbalists, & Modern Jews
(Messengers of God who appear in traditional texts--but discomfort some Jewish thinkers)

The medieval thinkers, though, believing in the existence of angels as found in the Bible and the rabbinic literature, tend to interpret the whole subject of angelology in a highly spiritual and more or less rationalistic manner. According to Maimonides, angels are creatures possessing form without matter. They are pure spirits differentiated from one another not by any bodily distinctions but solely by spiritual form and purpose.

LINK

For Maimonides, the angels are only seen in the Bible as creatures of fire and human form with wings as a feature of the prophetic vision. Wherever it is said in the Bible that angels appear to men in human guise, the meaning is that they so appear in a dream, which leads Maimonides, to the consternation of Nahmanides and others, to explain away some biblical passages as relating not actual events but dreams. Jacob did not really wrestle with the angel (Genesis 32:25-30 ), but only dreamed that he did so. Other commentators take the biblical passages literally, accepting that the angels actually become men when they appear on earth.

Looking at angels
by: Rabbi Jeremy Rosen
LINK

Maimonides say about angels, LINK

my question is this.....if angels could appear as men, then why is it impossible for one to believe that the Word of God was made flesh?

[sylvius]

my question is this.....if angels could appear as men, then why is it impossible for one to believe that the Word of God was made flesh?

I came to a new understanding of "the word made flesh" ("Das
fleischgewordene Wort").

Following Weinreb I always contended that it must be understood from Hebrew
"basar"/ "b'sorah" = Gospel

and not as "and God became man" or "God was made man" or "man was made
God".

Parable of the sower aims at the hundredfold yield of the seed. The seed being the word.

Hundredfold Hebrew "meah sh'arim" (Genesis 26:12) -- gematria 666
(40+1+5+300+70+200+10+40)

This being like the "ets pri oseh pri" , "the tree fruit that makes fruit" (of Geneis 1:11)--

the seed falling in the good
earth.

"chomer" (grainmeasure) = donkey-burden.

1 chomer = 100 omer.

"omer" being amount of manna that feel each day, except for on the
sabbath-day , while on the sixth there fell a double portion; one portion
for today and one portion for tomorrow.

After Zechariah 9:9 he Messiah is coming riding on a donkey -

So he himself is the donkey-burden.

In that sense he is the "word made flesh".

But only after "the seed has died", etc.

So in that sense he is "the fruit of the cross".

He being one with his message.

Note that also Isaac, who found hundredfold, also had denied himself by going with his father up to mount Moriah to be slaughtered there.

Mark 8:34-35

Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it.

[4 Zion]

The topic of angels is not covered with much detail at all in either OT or NT.Appearances in physical forms to Abraham and Jacob as well as appearances to some of the prophets whether physical or in vision is recorded scripturally in Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel. Daniel repeatedly describes Michael as the prince over the people Dan. 10:3,21 and Gabriel also appears to him Dan. 8:16, 9:21. Other brief references by Job 2:1, 38:7 . And a variety of other short appearences through out the OT scriptures. Often as messengers or warriors. Sometimes causing destruction and death. The angel of death in Exodus is an example.Destroyers of Sodom in Genesis etc.

The aspect of warfare seems to me to imply they are more then bodyless spirits. Maybe best to understand them in terms of being interdimensional. Having physical forms but not visable to our eyes unless they choose to make their presence known or for a specific purpose whether as messengers, gaurdians or warriors. I can see down through history there has been a lot of extrabiblical speculation about angels. It does seem evident that they have rank or some form of hierarchy. Lucifer is described as the covering cheribim also prior to the rebellion.Ezekiel 28:14- and Isaiah seems to be describing aspects of the fall in Isa. 14:13.

The NT also seems to back up the same impressions. Powers and principalities of fallen angels would correlate with Archangels and God having His hierarchy among the rightious angels as well Eph. 3:10,6:12, Col.2:15 as examples. I think both Jewish scholars as well as those in christendom have struggled to get a perspective on angels through the ages.Lots of gapes in our understanding of these things.

[mitzi]

The topic of angels is not covered with much detail at all in either OT or NT.Appearances in physical forms to Abraham and Jacob as well as appearances to some of the prophets whether physical or in vision is recorded scripturally in Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel. Daniel repeatedly describes Michael as the prince over the people Dan. 10:3,21 and Gabriel also appears to him Dan. 8:16, 9:21. Other brief references by Job 2:1, 38:7 . And a variety of other short appearences through out the OT scriptures. Often as messengers or warriors. Sometimes causing destruction and death. The angel of death in Exodus is an example.Destroyers of Sodom in Genesis etc.

The aspect of warfare seems to me to imply they are more then bodyless spirits. Maybe best to understand them in terms of being interdimensional. Having physical forms but not visable to our eyes unless they choose to make their presence known or for a specific purpose whether as messengers, gaurdians or warriors. I can see down through history there has been a lot of extrabiblical speculation about angels. It does seem evident that they have rank or some form of hierarchy. Lucifer is described as the covering cheribim also prior to the rebellion.Ezekiel 28:14- and Isaiah seems to be describing aspects of the fall in Isa. 14:13.

The NT also seems to back up the same impressions. Powers and principalities of fallen angels would correlate with Archangels and God having His hierarchy among the rightious angels as well Eph. 3:10,6:12, Col.2:15 as examples. I think both Jewish scholars as well as those in christendom have struggled to get a perspective on angels through the ages.Lots of gapes in our understanding of these things.

Hi 4Zion;

Thanks for your post – you’ve listed some good thoughts. As I read through the post, I thought about the resurrection, but not so much on revelations, but on the verse in the New Testament Matthew 22:29-30:

“29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”

And in (same verse) Mark 12: 24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

In both passage out of both Matthew and Mark, neither one gave as much detail about the resurrection however, they center on another thought and that was “The God of the living” and not the “God of the Dead’ however, in Luke *as to compare* – verse 36 “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God – being the children of the resurrection” The passage almost speaks in the present – as if they had already been those who had resurrected. However, it seems as if these are two passages being put together and should be separated - “they shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world” and “the resurrection from the dead” – as in a sequence, if that’s understandable. (See Mark 10: 26-27 “Who then can be saved?” and “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”)

see verses: *different bibles*

Luke 20:35, 36 (KJV) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luke 20:35, 36 (TNIV) But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Also reading out of Matthew 27:52, the resurrection came to light for those worthy and also how they were “raised” to Life! – Reflecting on this, it is the resurrection of the body into the spirit – much like the bitterness in slavery but there is also sweetness of the redemption by the hope of freedom “Freedom of the Spirit”– as in the resurrection. (The farmer is transformed from one who "sows in tears" to one who "reaps in joy." (Z'man Simchateinu Z'mn Simchateinu, the Season of our Rejoicing) - This is a great time to rejoice! Because the resurrection is freeing us from our bodies – as we are rejoicing in Spirit… Like Christ said “A slave cannot serve two different masters” (Matt. 6:24) the flesh and the spirit… The battle between the flesh and the spirit is a difficult one; however, God is able to help us. Let us all strive to eliminate and discard the "works of the flesh" and develop the "fruit of the Spirit".

[4 Zion]

Yes, freedom from the weakness of the flesh. We are bound by it and its frailty. To be resurrected and no longer bound by the limitations of our mortal bodies freed from the sin nature for eternity. Immortal and incorruptable like the master. To those who have suffered greatly physically and emotionally this gift will truely be a glorious release from bondage and the bitter enslavement of the flesh.
I cant help but wonder how the angels must perceive us mortals. They have never known the same limitations of the flesh. We humans have never known the freedom and power that has been theirs. I sometimes wonder though, if Lucifer was jealous of Adam and Eve? Covetious of the doting of the Creator over these frail creatures that were given dominion over the new creation. I think he must have dispised them ,coveted Adam's role. Desiring to usurp Adam's position as ruler and to make this domain his own. The only other reason I can think of for satans actions in the garden would be to wound God and disappoint Him through the rebellion of the humans. Still that could also have been motivated by jealousy or spite.

[mitzi]

Yes, freedom from the weakness of the flesh. We are bound by it and its frailty. To be resurrected and no longer bound by the limitations of our mortal bodies freed from the sin nature for eternity. Immortal and incorruptable like the master. To those who have suffered greatly physically and emotionally this gift will truely be a glorious release from bondage and the bitter enslavement of the flesh.
I cant help but wonder how the angels must perceive us mortals. They have never known the same limitations of the flesh. We humans have never known the freedom and power that has been theirs. I sometimes wonder though, if Lucifer was jealous of Adam and Eve? Covetious of the doting of the Creator over these frail creatures that were given dominion over the new creation. I think he must have dispised them ,coveted Adam's role. Desiring to usurp Adam's position as ruler and to make this domain his own. The only other reason I can think of for satans actions in the garden would be to wound God and disappoint Him through the rebellion of the humans. Still that could also have been motivated by jealousy or spite.

correction on the paragraph that I wrote in haste:

In both passages Matthew and Mark, neither one gave that much detail about the resurrection however, they did center on another thought and that was “The God of the living” and not the “God of the Dead’ however, in Luke *as to compare* – verse 36 “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God – being the children of the resurrection” The passage almost speaks in the present – as if there had been already some who had resurrected. However, it seems as if these two passages are being put together and should be separated - “they shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world” and “the resurrection from the dead” – as in a sequence, if that’s understandable. (See Mark 10: 26-27 “Who then can be saved?” and “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”)

I think that the apostle had questioned Jesus on "who then" can be saved - as Jesus had ended his response with " With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.".......

In the book of Tobit, for instance, the Angel Raphael is seen as a sort of mediator or a deliver of prayers that are brought to God (“May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.” (Psalm 141:2 and Tobit 12:12-16)) However, if you continue to read through the book, Raphael, who is seen as an angel, response back to Tobit question with this answer:

Raphael answered, "I am Azariah, son of Hananiah the elder, one of your own kinsmen."
14 Tobit exclaimed: "Welcome! God save you, brother! Do not be provoked with me, brother, for wanting to learn the truth about your family. So it turns out that you are a kinsman, and from a noble and good line! I knew Hananiah and Nathaniah, the two sons of Shemaiah the elder; with me they used to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem, where we would worship together. No, they did not stray from the right path; your kinsmen are good men. You are certainly of good lineage, and welcome!"

and ends the story with:

12 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead. 13 When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead, 14 I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah.15 I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord."

[4 Zion]

Shalom!

Mitzi ,I am not understanding this quote from Tobit. It appears that this is where the idea comes from that angels were once human.The impression I get is this is one reason the book has not been included in the canon of most translations.Just trying to get a handle on where you are going with this.

[mitzi]

Shalom!

Mitzi ,I am not understanding this quote from Tobit. It appears that this is where the idea comes from that angels were once human.The impression I get is this is one reason the book has not been included in the canon of most translations.Just trying to get a handle on where you are going with this.

In the book of Tobit, the angel Raphael was in human form even though that this book had never been included in some canons, it does confirm this. (see Tobit 5:4 "Tobiah went to look for someone acquainted with the roads who would travel with him to Media. As soon as he went out, he found the angel Raphael standing before him, though he did not know that this was an angel of God.").

You (I think) had mentioned the appearance of the three angels to Abraham at Mamre which many Christians distinctly confirm that "one of the angels" depicts Christ, correct? Genesis 18:1 "And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. 6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat."

So Christ did appear in human form beforehand? Why would this be so difficult to understand "the word made flesh"? Also, as scripture describes that the two angels went ahead to Sodom and Gomorrah while one angel stayed behind with Abraham (Genesis 18:16-21) However, I will note Genesis 19:1 "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; 2And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. 3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Two things that came to mind with these passages out of Genesis and Tobit, the angels were sent (human form) to test the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah and also the Angel Raphael was sent to test Tobit and to heal his daughter in law Sarah.

Genesis 18:7 "And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD"

Now the passage out of Tobit, the angel Raphael was sent to test (Tobit 12:14) I will conceal nothing at all from you. I have already said to you, 'A king's secret it is prudent to keep, but the works of God are to be made known with due honor. 12 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.13 When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead, 14 I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah."


Why was the Book of Tobit left out of the canon - both Genesis and also the book of Tobit confirms that God will send out his Angels to test man and also how God commissions His angels? Also, if you read the beginning of the book of Tobit the author gives us a clear picture of the history of the Jews during the reign of Shalmaneser, King of Assyria: (1st temple period - excellent details)

The book tells the story of Tobit, son of Tobiel, son of Hananiel, son of Aduel, son of Gabael of the family of Asiel, of the tribe of Naphtali, who during the reign of Shalmaneser, 2 king of Assyria, was taken captive from Thisbe, which is south of Kedesh Naphtali in upper Galilee, above and to the west of Asser, north of Phogor.

"I, Tobit, have walked all the days of my life on the paths of truth and righteousness. I performed many charitable works for my kinsmen and my people who had been deported with me to Nineveh, in Assyria. When I lived as a young man in my own country, Israel, the entire tribe of my forefather Naphtali had broken away from the house of David and from Jerusalem. This city had been singled out of all Israel's tribes, so that they all might offer sacrifice in the place where the temple, God's dwelling, had been built and consecrated for all generations to come. 3 All my kinsmen, like the rest of the tribe of my forefather Naphtali, used to offer sacrifice on all the mountains of Galilee as well as to the young bull which Jeroboam, king of Israel, had made in Dan."

I understood "alot" of what was being said and also how Tobit conversed with his son Tobias in Chapter 4: all - please read. If you're Jewish - and had a family background within those territories.....and how those beliefs played an everyday part about how angels and humans conversed - in ancient times. But these beliefs are not shown greater strength today.

However, what was shown is the fact that angels - were in human form and I don't understand "why" it's difficult for others to understand "the word made flesh".

[4 Zion]

Shalom Mitzi!

I dont want you to misunderstand my statement in the former post. I do believe angels can appear in physical form. Even a non human form as in the garden of Eden. I see these situations where angels were eating and doing physical acts and in solid physical forms . That is why I said earlier that they seemed like interdimensional beings rather then pure spirit.

The question I had about Tobit was it appeared to be saying that the angel Raphael was formerly a human relative of Tobit and now an angel? That was what I was questioning.

Blessings!

[mitzi]

Shalom Mitzi!

I dont want you to misunderstand my statement in the former post. I do believe angels can appear in physical form. Even a non human form as in the garden of Eden. I see these situations where angels were eating and doing physical acts and in solid physical forms . That is why I said earlier that they seemed like interdimensional beings rather then pure spirit.

The question I had about Tobit was it appeared to be saying that the angel Raphael was formerly a human relative of Tobit and now an angel? That was what I was questioning.

Blessings!

And in (same verse) Mark 12: 24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

In both Matthew and Mark, the passages never gave as much detail about the resurrection however, they center on another thought and that was “The God of the living” and not the “God of the Dead’ however, in Luke *as to compare* – verse 36 “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God – being the children of the resurrection” The passage almost speaks in the present – as if they had already been those who had resurrected. However, it seems as if these two passages are being put together and Yet should be separated - “they shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world” and “the resurrection from the dead” – as in a sequence, if that’s understandable. (See Mark 10: 26-27 “Who then can be saved?” and “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”)

see verses: *different bibles*

Luke 20:35, 36 (KJV) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luke 20:35, 36 (TNIV) But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Also reading out of Matthew 27:52, the resurrection came to light for those worthy and also how they were “raised” to Life! – Reflecting on this, it is the resurrection of the body into the spirit – much like the bitterness in slavery but there is also sweetness of the redemption by the hope of freedom “Freedom of the Spirit”– as in the resurrection. (The farmer is transformed from one who "sows in tears" to one who "reaps in joy." (Z'man Simchateinu Z'mn Simchateinu, the Season of our Rejoicing) - This is a great time to rejoice! Because the resurrection is freeing us from our bodies – as we are rejoicing in Spirit… Like Christ said “A slave cannot serve two different masters” (Matt. 6:24) the flesh and the spirit… The battle between the flesh and the spirit is a difficult one; however, God is able to help us. Let us all strive to eliminate and discard the "works of the flesh" and develop the "fruit of the Spirit".

In the case of the book of Tobit, The Angel was Raphael.....

[mitzi]

Shalom Mitzi!

I dont want you to misunderstand my statement in the former post. I do believe angels can appear in physical form. Even a non human form as in the garden of Eden. I see these situations where angels were eating and doing physical acts and in solid physical forms . That is why I said earlier that they seemed like interdimensional beings rather then pure spirit.

The question I had about Tobit was it appeared to be saying that the angel Raphael was formerly a human relative of Tobit and now an angel? That was what I was questioning.

Blessings!

....I'm not misunderstanding you at all but I do think that there other members on the board who don't understand how the word "could be" made flesh. And my question back is "why" did they find it so difficult when it's listed that Angels were in human form when they communicated with man - referring to the visitation of the three angels to Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah - The Garden of Eden - etc......

[4 Zion]

Ok Mitzi,
I do see numerous situations in scripture where people came in contact with angelic beings and responded to them like they were regular mortals, apparently unable to discern they were angels. There is also the situation with Jacob wrestling with the angel and the appearance of Melkizedek by Abraham and the 70 elders with Moshe on Mt Sinai. Sometimes it appears the people realize they are interacting with supernatural beings and sometimes they seem not to. I think that many people presume and project into scripture those presumptions. It seems to be an aspect of human nature to draw conclusions based on what we have been taught and think we know. Setting aside those presuppositions is not an easy thing to do especially when we sincerly believe we are correct. It requires a conscious act of the will to do so and not read into scripture what we think it means.

[mitzi]

Ok Mitzi,
I do see numerous situations in scripture where people came in contact with angelic beings and responded to them like they were regular mortals, apparently unable to discern they were angels. There is also the situation with Jacob wrestling with the angel and the appearance of Melkizedek by Abraham and the 70 elders with Moshe on Mt Sinai. Sometimes it appears the people realize they are interacting with supernatural beings and sometimes they seem not to. I think that many people presume and project into scripture those presumptions. It seems to be an aspect of human nature to draw conclusions based on what we have been taught and think we know. Setting aside those presuppositions is not an easy thing to do especially when we sincerely believe we are correct. It requires a conscious act of the will to do so and not read into scripture what we think it means.

Well, two verses out of scripture but the one I would like to focus on is the angel that Paul struggled with:

"For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men." 1 Corinthians 4:9

"For I think - It seems to me. Grotius thinks that this is to be taken ironically, as if he had said, "It seems then that God has designed that we, the apostles, should be subject to contempt and suffering; and be made poor and persecuted, while you are admitted to high honors and privileges." But probably this is to be taken as a serious declaration of Paul, designed to show their actual condition and trials, while others were permitted to live in enjoyment. Whatever might be their condition, Paul says that the condition of himself and his fellow-laborers was one of much contempt and suffering; and the inference seems to be, that they ought to doubt whether they were in a right state, or had any occasion for their self-congratulation, since they so little resembled those whom God had set forth."

Barnes' Notes on the Bible.....do you agree with this ?

As for Jacob's struggle with the angel - it was said that the angel sent was from Esau...but through His struggles and pains came the nation of Israel. It was Jacob's hip sock that was touched as he walked with a limp - so he struggled and won.

2 Cor 12:7 -10

Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.