Do Mormons actually READ FAIR?

[Cow Poke]

But hang on a minute. I thought the LDS considered itself a part of mainstream Christianity. How could an LDS member consider any other mainstream Christian an 'enemy'?

Just some random half-awake thoughts, Pman....

There is a definite emphasis on "persecution" in the Mormon Church teachings. I get in trouble for saying that Jeff, for example, has a "persecution complex". I think a major difference between us is that I grew up with the foundational teachings that Christians were EXPECTED to have opposition, and the Bible teaches that "All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution". Paul teaches Timothy to "endure like a soldier", and uses the "put on the whole armor of God" analogy to show that we are to "stand tough".

I think it is "necessary" for Mormons like Jeff to have these "enemies", because it's what unites them against the outside world. I believe that Paul was teaching that you take those things in stride, and the concept is that they CRUCIFIED JESUS, so what makes anybody think WE should "have it easy". "Life is tough", so hunker down and stay the course! And, rather than complain about persecution or "mocking", the "Christian Soldier" puts on the armor, and stands in the might and power of the Spirit.

Disagreement does not imply malicious intent. I imagine I disagree with a whole lot of what CP holds near and dear. I imagine he would disagree with my opinions. But that doesn't make us 'enemies'.

Exactly. And one of the things I really DISLIKED when I was a "full time Pastor" was the fact that I MOSTLY only associated with people who AGREED with me. BORING!!!! As a Bi-Vocational Pastor, or, more recently, chaplain for an oil & gas company, I was around a LOT of people with REALLY different ideas, some of which were very hostile to "organized religion". I really enjoyed the opportunity to be around those kinds of people, because I learned from them, and I had an opportunity to "prove myself" in my faithfulness to God.

I suspect you and I, in person, could have some pretty "far out" conversations over a good meal or two, and still be friends.

Maybe I'm weird. I was sitting here a minute trying to think of someone I DID consider an enemy but I can't think of any.

I have, from time to time, discovered that I had, in fact, "an enemy". I always saw it as a challenge to make them my friend, and more than a few times, it has worked.

One of my mom's favorite expressions was "Love your enemies -- after all, YOU MADE THEM!"

(I'm going to hit "Post" without re-reading this, just for grins. )

[nrajeff]

But hang on a minute. I thought the LDS considered itself a part of mainstream Christianity.

Not all individuals who are especially antagonistic toward the LDS church (or its leaders or members or doctrines) are necessarily a part of mainstream Christianity. They might belong to a fringe cult of anti-LDSism that is out in left field.

How could an LDS member consider any other mainstream Christian an 'enemy'?

By that "mainstream Christian's" behavior, of course. If he's acting with malice towards me as a person, I am not liable to care how mainstream he thinks his beliefs are. If he treats me as an enemy would, there is a fair chance that I will consider him my enemy.
Friends typically don't attack other friends. By their behavior ye shall know them, whether they be thine enemy or thy friend.

Disagreement does not imply malicious intent.

Behavior can, though.

I imagine I disagree with a whole lot of what CP holds near and dear. I imagine he would disagree with my opinions. But that doesn't make us 'enemies'.

Looks like you have figured out what I have been saying. It's not necessarily the fact that you disagree with someone that makes him your enemy. It's something else.

Maybe I'm weird. I was sitting here a minute trying to think of someone I DID consider an enemy but I can't think of any.

It has been said that he who goes through life without making any enemies, must have majored in professional fence-sitting in college. Or is from Switzerland. Even Gandhi had enemies.

[Cow Poke]

Communists would love it if us Americans would "see the light" of Communism and "come over" to their beliefs. They may even have "friends" who are Americans. They may not hate Americans. But that doesn't make them NOT our enemies.

I was 9 years old in October, 1962, during the "Cuban Missile Crisis". To my knowledge, this was the closest that the world has ever come to thermonuclear war. My neighbor was building an underground bomb shelter in his back yard, and we were doing "air raid drills" at school, practicing hiding under our desks. At home, we watched the news each evening for those 13 days, and I remember my dad being REALLY concerned. He didn't get rattled easily.

John Kennedy and Nikita Khrushchev, along with a KGB Washington DC Station Chief and an ABC News Correspondent, and others, managed to try to NOT see each other as "enemies" -- while the military planners were driving hard toward global nuclear war.

Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed, concessions were made (including some secret deals) and a global crisis was averted. Because some people saw the need to NOT play the "but, we're enemies!" card.

[pancreasman]

Not all individuals who are especially antagonistic toward the LDS church (or its leaders or members or doctrines) are necessarily a part of mainstream Christianity. They might belong to a fringe cult of anti-LDSism that is out in left field.


By that "mainstream Christian's" behavior, of course. If he's acting with malice towards me as a person, I am not liable to care how mainstream he thinks his beliefs are. If he treats me as an enemy would, there is a fair chance that I will consider him my enemy.
Friends typically don't attack other friends. By their behavior ye shall know them, whether they be thine enemy or thy friend.


Behavior can, though.


Looks like you have figured out what I have been saying. It's not necessarily the fact that you disagree with someone that makes him your enemy. It's something else.


It has been said that he who goes through life without making any enemies, must have majored in professional fence-sitting in college. Or is from Switzerland. Even Gandhi had enemies.

You misunderstand. There are plenty of people who disagree with me, and there are plenty who dislike me personally. I honestly don't consider them my enemies though. I think giving someone the label of 'enemy' is something only we can do. To me (especially in this situation where it is about ideology) it smacks a little of hyperbole.

I suppose if I came to this website and the vast majority of people treated me with disdain it would be a mentally healthy choice for me not to come here. It hasn't happened so far. Some people think I am a dope. Some like me. That's life. No need to be dramatic and start calling people enemies.

[Sparko]

I was 9 years old in October, 1962, during the "Cuban Missile Crisis". To my knowledge, this was the closest that the world has ever come to thermonuclear war.

If you've seen one thermonuclear war, you've seen them all.

[One Bad Pig]

John Kennedy and Nikita Khrushchev, along with a KGB Washington DC Station Chief and an ABC News Correspondent, and others, managed to try to NOT see each other as "enemies" -- while the military planners were driving hard toward global nuclear war.

Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed, concessions were made (including some secret deals) and a global crisis was averted. Because some people saw the need to NOT play the "but, we're enemies!" card.

I don't think it's because ol' Shoepounder didn't conceive of the US as an enemy, but because Kennedy stared him down, and he decided that any potential victory would be Pyrrhic at best.

[Cow Poke]

I don't think it's because ol' Shoepounder didn't conceive of the US as an enemy, but because Kennedy stared him down, and he decided that any potential victory would be Pyrrhic at best.

First, I'm not saying they (we) weren't still enemies, but there were some factors that looked beyond that. AND, the backdoor deals with missiles being removed from Turkey was, IMO, the final component. Kennedy found a way to save face while giving up the missiles in Turkey. If Kennedy had had the attitude Jeff displays, I don't think there would have been the compromises.

[Cow Poke]

First, I'm not saying they (we) weren't still enemies, but there were some factors that looked beyond that. AND, the backdoor deals with missiles being removed from Turkey was, IMO, the final component. Kennedy found a way to save face while giving up the missiles in Turkey. If Kennedy had had the attitude Jeff displays, I don't think there would have been the compromises.

As a matter of fact, when I first found out about the secret deal over the missiles in Turkey, I thought Kennedy had done something sneaky and underhanded.

Then I started reading "The Art of War".

[nrajeff]

First, I'm not saying they (we) weren't still enemies

Then you are being blatantly intellectually inconsistent. (I don't really need to add "IMO" to that, right?)

but there were some factors that looked beyond that.

Seems like you are trying to equivocate. Either there ARE such things are real enemies, or there aren't. Pretending that someone who IS your enemy, isn't your enemy, might be termed "living in a fantasy world."

I get it that you have a problem with my realism. Why can't you just acknowledge that and let it go, instead of dredging up your old-CP self and making things about me and my alleged persecution complex? It's almost as if you're obsessed.

Kennedy found a way to save face while giving up the missiles in Turkey. If Kennedy had had the attitude Jeff displays, I don't think there would have been the compromises.

You are free to compromise with all real enemies, including terrorists and kidnappers. I happen to believe that it's foolish to make that your official S.O.P.

Funny, though, how you don't really seem to be willing to make compromises with me, despite all your pontificating about your recent realization that you should start being nicer, letting bygones be bygones, and how only persecution complex people think that someone who treats you as an enemy might actually be an enemy. It's almost as if you want to treat me as your enemy, albeit while trying to hide it behind your facade of passive-aggressive condescension.

I respected you slightly more back when you didn't try to hide your antipathy.

[Sparko]

I respected you slightly more back when you didn't try to hide your antipathy.

really? You whined and complained how mean everyone was to you when they questioned your faith's teachings. and now you are whining because they are not mean enough to you.

[Cow Poke]

Funny, though, how you don't really seem to be willing to make compromises with me...

What compromise would you like me to make, Jeff? I have ALREADY unilaterally backed WAY off on the attacks and what you call "mocking". You continue to talk to me with contempt, and I have challenged you meet me in the "civil discussion" arena.

What compromise are you wanting?

I respected you slightly more back when you didn't try to hide your antipathy.

I have no antipathy whatsoever toward Punkinhead. I have FAR less antipathy toward OC. I'm WORKING on less antipathy toward you.

I'm not hiding it, Jeff -- I'm managing it, and allowing the Holy Spirit to take it away. I would encourage you to do likewise.

[Cow Poke]

You are free to compromise with all real enemies, including terrorists and kidnappers.

1 Cor 9

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

I happen to believe that it's foolish to make that your official S.O.P.

1 Cor 4

10 We are fools for Christ's sake...

IN THE SPIRIT, Jeff, we operate differently than in the flesh.

[nrajeff]

really?

Yeah, really.

You whined and complained how mean everyone was to you when they questioned your faith's teachings.

You are ly....ly...(struggling to keep from breaking a forum rule) not making a true statement. I pointed out your AD HOMINEMS and MOCKERY. It had little or nothing to do with the few occasions when you actually DID confine yourself to questioning my faith's TEACHINGS.

and now you are whining because they are not mean enough to you.

When you show your true colors, it is still not a pretty sight, but at least when you do, you are honest enough to attack from the front instead of sneaking in a sucker punch from behind. So of the two evils, one is the lesser IMO.

In both cases, you are peeing on someone. But in the former, at least you aren't telling the person that it's just clean, pure rain.

[nrajeff]

I have no antipathy whatsoever toward Punkinhead.

Nice straw man or goalpost moving.

I have FAR less antipathy toward OC. I'm WORKING on less antipathy toward you.

Well, "keep up the good work," as the saying goes.

I'm not hiding it, Jeff -- I'm managing it...

I will try to look for evidences of that as I read future posts from you.

[Cow Poke]

Nice straw man or goalpost moving.

It was a starting point, Jeff. An example. She's a Mormon, and I have ZERO antipathy toward her. No straw or goalpost moving whatsoever. Then I pointed out that I am working on having LESS antipathy toward OC, and I believe I'm making solid progress there. YOU are, of course, the biggest challenge.

Well, "keep up the good work," as the saying goes.

I fully intend to. Thanks.

I will try to look for evidences of that as I read future posts from you.

I have a feeling you're going to continue to look for fault, Jeff, like interpreting the word "excuse" as a pejorative, even when there was none intended, and that meaning did not fit the context of the thread or the post. HOWEVER, if this is a NEW commitment, time will tell.