1 Peter 1:16:Be ye holy; for I am holy.

[Chappie]

Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

546 times the word holy is used in the King James Bible. Is the word just another way of saying consecrated/sanctified? Holy Spirit, Holy Mountain, holy city, holy woman, holy prophets, and holy angels: And the list goes on and on and on. Are there any moral prerogatives indigenous to the word “holy”? What separates something holy from something not holy?

[lee_merrill]

Hi Chappie, this involves a pet peeve of mine. Peeves make nice pets, by the way.

Now sometimes holy does pretty much just mean "set apart":

"A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord." (Lev 27:30 NIV)

But I would say "holy" does not simply mean "set apart" in reference to people, as you might hear so often from a speaker. The shrine prostitutes were called "kadeshah / kadeshim" (feminine / masculine forms of "kadesh", "holy"), yet they weren't holy!

Baal worshippers considered them holy, but God did not.

"There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites." (1Ki 14:24 NIV)

But if all "holy" means is "set apart," consecrated, then these shrine prostitutes were as holy as the vessels and priests in the temple.

One example I have heard used is a toothbrush. It's set apart for my use--if it gets used to scrub the cruft off the bathroom tiles, it is no longer set apart only for my use, it is no longer holy.

But holy means much more than that, it means pure, it means moral purity.

"I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy." (Lev 11:44 NIV)

Now if this only means set apart, then to whom or to what is God set apart for? but I believe it means apart from sin, and certainly there can be a setting apart, if an object or person was not holy before.

But holiness implies being apart from sin, more than any act or event of setting apart.

"For it is indeed fitting for us to have such a high priest: holy, innocent, undefiled, separate from sinners, and exalted above the heavens." (Heb 7:26 NET)

"As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had ... But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy.'" (1Pe 1:14-16 NIV)

So moral purity is part of holiness here.

I'm done with my soapbox now. If anybody needs it for some soap or something.

Blessings,
Lee

[Abelard]

I interpret holy as set aside from the world and dedicated to God's use. That includes set aside from sin, but also includes things that are ethically neutral (like dietary restrictions) or even positive (Nazarite vows).

[Chappie]

I interpret holy as set aside from the world and dedicated to God's use. That includes set aside from sin, but also includes things that are ethically neutral (like dietary restrictions) or even positive (Nazarite vows).

God is holy. What are the moral and legal rammifications of that? What is God set apart from?

[Chappie]

"I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy." (Lev 11:44 NIV)

Now if this only means set apart, then to whom or to what is God set apart for? but I believe it means apart from sin, and certainly there can be a setting apart, if an object or person was not holy before.
Lee

Hello Mr. Lee:
There are a myriad of other passages in the bible that tell us not to sin. Why this passage. Be holy because I am holy. Are we to mimic the actions of God, never forgetting the difference between creator and created of course...

[Abelard]

God is holy. What are the moral and legal ramifications of that? What is God set apart from?

I see three ways God is set apart, but there may be more.

One is that God desires to be known for himself and not be confused. There is distinctiveness that his choices and actions be regarded properly, and part of holiness is this identification with the divine. The 'jealous God' meme.

Second is purity. The Hebrew concept of sacrifice is essentially a cleanliness ritual, and we read in the OT & NT how God removes Himself from unclean situations. His grace continues to extend, and He continues to desire to continue in relationship but a lack of purity is an obstacle to maintaining contact with God.

Third is the principle of organization. One attribute of God is that His work is compartmentalized and organized. I think we see this principle in the prohibition against mixing linen with cotton and in sexual specificity. Things which are holy have distinct boundaries and they are not "mixed" in any way.

[Chappie]

I see three ways God is set apart, but there may be more.

One is that God desires to be known for himself and not be confused. There is distinctiveness that his choices and actions be regarded properly, and part of holiness is this identification with the divine. The 'jealous God' meme.

Second is purity. The Hebrew concept of sacrifice is essentially a cleanliness ritual, and we read in the OT & NT how God removes Himself from unclean situations. His grace continues to extend, and He continues to desire to continue in relationship but a lack of purity is an obstacle to maintaining contact with God.

Third is the principle of organization. One attribute of God is that His work is compartmentalized and organized. I think we see this principle in the prohibition against mixing linen with cotton and in sexual specificity. Things which are holy have distinct boundaries and they are not "mixed" in any way.

Does God have distinctive boundaries, if so; name a couple...

[Abelard]

Does God have distinctive boundaries, if so; name a couple...

God's boundaries are that He is entirely unlike his creation. To echo the three points I made before:

1) God is self-sufficient, but nothing in His creation can exist without Him or the entirety of His creation. Need is a boundary.
2) God is pure and omnibenevolent but His creation is not. Corruption is a boundary.
3) God is elegantly simple and indivisible, but creation is immensely varied and interorganized on macro and micro levels. The act of creation itself is primarily an act of organization: separation of light and dark, division of the waters. Comprehensibility is a boundary - one cannot analyze or deconstruct God.

God's boundaries are asymptotes; not functions. They are irrational (in the mathematical sense), and can be approached but never reached. We can only see the boundaries from our inferior, human perspective.

When we confuse our perception of God's boundaries with the reality of His boundaries we get strange items like the logical problem of evil and double predestination. The perception of God's boundaries is all arrived at through the via negativa and if we forget it is apophatic instead of apodictic we we create major problems. This simple logical error explains a lot of how Calvin managed to stick so close to Augustine and yet ended up looking through the wrong end of his telescope.

[Abelard]

I ran the phrase through Accordance and it appears Peter was quoting Leviticus. I think my observations fit rather well, with Leviticus emphasizing the cleanliness/purity aspect.

[“For I am the LORD who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.”” (Lev 11:44–45 ESV)

Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground.” (Lev 11:44 ESV)

“And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy. Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.” (Lev 19:1–3 ESV)

“You shall be holy to me, for I the LORD am holy and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine.”
(Lev 20:25–26 ESV)

[Abelard]

Hi Chappie, in my book, holy means whole. Go(o)d is a Whole Totality that includes Everything. This is opposite the way the word holy is used by Hebrew tribesmen. To set apart is to make unholy (unwhole).

Mr. Monk, when you start out by saying your definition is opposite of the accepted one, and then you base your idiosyncratic definition on a pun, I think I am justified in saying it is your logic that is holey (holey being wholly defined per Emmentaler).

[UrbanMonk]

Mr. Monk, when you start out by saying your definition is opposite of the accepted one, and then you base your idiosyncratic definition on a pun, I think I am justified in saying it is your logic that is holey (holey being wholly defined per Emmentaler).

Are suggesting that by making the word Holy synonymous with the word Whole i'm basing my definition on a pun? It's not a pun. Holy means Whole when applied to the term Go(o)d. Holy means the opposite of Whole when it is applied to the god of this world. The god of this world is a separatist. Go(o)d Our Father is a Whole Totality comprising Everything. So is the Son of Go(o)d. "Be ye holy", depending on which God you are meaning, will mean "be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" to the Sons of Go(o)d. It will mean *be ye separatist* to the sons of the god of this world.

[Abelard]

Are suggesting that by making the word Holy synonymous with the word Whole i'm basing my definition on a pun?

I'm not suggesting. I'm stating it as a fact.

This is a serious thread about how the term is used in Scripture, and you stated in your post that what you think has no relation to Scripture. I quote, "This is opposite the way the word holy is used by Hebrew tribesmen".

You are welcome to celebrate 'interpret the Bible backwards day', but do not vandalize serious discussions. The entire point of this thread is to question what the Hebrews meant by holy.

Start your own thread for non-Hebrew understanding of the Old Testament . Preferably in Esperanto.

[lee_merrill]

Hi Chappie,

There are a myriad of other passages in the bible that tell us not to sin. Why this passage. Be holy because I am holy.

That's a good question, I had never thought about that.

I like Charles Finney here: "[Holiness] is sympathy with God and likeness to him;--the state of mind that God has."

So "be holy, for I am holy" is sympathy with God, symphony with God! He is the conductor, and this is the tune--what he commands is for us to be like him.

Are we to mimic the actions of God, never forgetting the difference between creator and created of course...

Yes, exactly...

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. I also like Finney's definition of holiness as he put it in another way in the above article: "Moral fitness; that which we see to be morally appropriate; it is in substance, moral propriety; in other words--perfect love". Holiness is often seen as a sort of cold perfection, but this turns that perspective on its head.

[UrbanMonk]

The entire point of this thread is to question what the Hebrews meant by holy.

Really? Where in the OP does it state that? Instead, I've got two generalized questions:

1.) Are there any moral prerogatives indigenous to the word “holy”?
2.) What separates something holy from something not holy?

1.) Morality is relative to Knowledge (capital K). Knowledge is relative to a Totality. Holiness is relative to a Totality. The Holy One Knows All. The Holy One is All. Christ is All. Christ is "All in All". Christ is Holy. Christ is Perfect. Jesus said, "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". Moral perfection is indigenous to Christ. Be Christ and you will be morally perfect, knowing all. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is an appeal to know knowledge. The knower knows that all selves are really one Self. We will treat our neighbor according to how aware we are of the fact that all selves are one Self. Our treatment will vary depending on how far from Knowledge of Self we've wandered away toward ignorance into incarnational expressions of separate identities.

2.) The concept of separation separates what is Holy (Whole) from what is unholy. The concept of a separate Go(o)d is fundamentally unholy. Separation, unholy and ungodly are all synonymous. A world of separate things is an unholy world. Among separate things, something are called holy and/or sacred. This is what substitutes for true Holiness. What substitutes for Holiness is opposite what is Holy.

[Abelard]

Really? Where in the OP does it state that?[/quote]
In the title. "Re: 1 Peter 1:16 . . ." The verse starts out, "It is written, . . ." indicating Peter is quoting from the Old Testament.

1.) Morality is relative to Knowledge (capital K).

Wrong. Morality is a measure of right and wrong, which are NOT relative and the basic knowledge of right and wrong is perfectly evident to everyone.
“since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.”
(Rom 1:19–20 HCSB)
“So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law.”
(Rom 2:14 HCSB)

2.) The concept of separation separates what is Holy (Whole) from what is unholy.

Creation is fundamentally different from the creator. It is not a conceptual difference.
Holiness refers to separation from the rest of creation (Leviticus 20:24), and separation to God (Numbers 6:2-12).