Difference in being saved vs working out salvation?

[jo7241974]

This was something I posted in another thread on a different forum. However, I am very interested in hearing from a wider pool of Twebbers about this subject. Therefore, I am devoting an entire thread to it on the Unorthodox Theology 201 forum. I have slightly modified my comments and am pointing out that this OP is taking into consideration ONLY what is contained in the Bible. It is NOT intended to include any additional stipulations or requirements that arguments over doctrine encompass. This OP is for both believers and non-believers. The source is from the Bible.

Coming to Christ is only the beginning of the journey in following and believing Christ. There is much more to it then taking the leap of faith. Yes, we must accept Christ as our Savior in order to be availed of His atoning sacrifice. However, if that is the only thing that separates us from those who are lost, then what are all of the other teachings for? What does working out our own salvation mean? Haven't we already been saved? What is there to work out? What are all of the commandments for? Why bother to teach anything about commandments since Jesus has already paid the price of breaking them? Why did the Apostles worry about organizing the believers at all? Weren't they all already saved due to the very reason that they had accepted Jesus? Why all of the additional instruction? Heck, what need is there for any discussion concerning doctrine between men? Nothing is said about interpreting doctrine correctly. What more is beyond the question, "Do you believe and accept Jesus Christ as your savior?" The requirement for being saved is to believe. Therefore, if you DO believe, then you are saved. If you DON'T believe, you are lost.

As soon as you attach even the slightest refinement to your journey, you have changed the very foundation of what you really and truly believe is necessary to be saved. So, is it even required to study and read or live a certain way, or think a certain way, or dress a certain way, treat others a certain way, do you need to go to Church, pay tithes, teach others, etc.? If it is only required that you believe and accept Jesus as your Savior, THEN NOTHING ELSE IS REQUIRED TO BE SAVED.

HOWEVER, if more than accepting Jesus is necessary to work out our salvation, then it becomes apparent that it was needful the Bible would also teach keeping the commandments, teaching about the change that takes place inside of us, teaching us to look for the fruit, building the kingdom of God in us and in the Church, teaching us to pray, to study, to become disciples and teach the Gospel, etc., etc.

So, which is it? Why the seeming contradiction?

Is there a connection to first coming to Christ and: "wide is the gate"?

Is there a connection to working out your own salvation to: "narrow is the way to eternal life and few there be that find it"?

Is there a connection to "wide is the gate" and the various levels of Heaven which have been described; i.e., the stars, the moon, and the Sun?

Is there a connection to "narrow is the way" to the third heaven (the Sun) where God lives?

If, when you are saved upon coming to Christ, you are immediately zipped down the path of the "narrow way" into the third heaven, and you thus avoid the "wide gate" altogether, or you must consider why so much beyond being “saved” is taught. What then, is the "wide gate"? Are the additional teachings placed in the Bible because you DO have an active part in working out your own salvation by entering through the "wide gate" upon accepting Christ (thus being saved) and then move on to the "narrow way to eternal life" which requires following all of the teachings? Do we have a hand in determining which Heaven we end up in which equates to working out our own salvation, and which gives a purpose for all the additional teachings in the Bible which are given directly to those who have already accepted Christ and been saved?

God bless,

jo

[Vivian]

Hi Jo -

Among those who walk the broad path, there is much disagreement on spiritual concepts.

Among those who walk the difficult path, there is no disagreement. These though are few.

I noticed in your post you kept speaking of coming to Christ, coming to Jesus, and I recalled hearing this often at church. But among those walking the difficult path, the phrase coming to Jesus is nonsensical. And so I did a Bible search, and found four mentions of coming to God:

One is when Jesus says to let the little children come to him, for such is the kingdom of heaven.

Another is when Jesus speaks of picking up our cross and coming after him.

A third is when Jesus speaks of no one coming to the Father except through him.

And a final one speaks of us coming to the Light to have our inner most being revealed.

I did though find countless mentions of Christ coming to us. Added to this, as mentioned on another thread, St. John speaking of our receiving of Christ.

Those walking the difficult path - and yes, Jesus did say the path to eternal life is difficult - speak of Christ coming to us and our reception of Christ as an actual experience and knowing. An actual giving of Christ and a receiving.

Something else you mention regarding which heaven we might ascend to... it is curious that scripture says that all the heavens that exist will pass away.

So whatever heavens exist now are temporary. Scripture does not tell us what the new heavens will be like, only that they will be new.

Those walking the difficult path say that presently there are 7 heavens, matching the colors of the rainbow, and the seven spirits of God, the seven days of creation, and many other references to 7, plus the divine or supernal heaven.

But these 7 will someday pass away.

I am curious what LDS doctrine says about the heavens passing away?


Shalom!

Viv

[UrbanMonk]

What more is beyond the question, "Do you believe and accept Jesus Christ as your savior?" The requirement for being saved is to believe. Therefore, if you DO believe, then you are saved. If you DON'T believe, you are lost.

jo

Anyone who believes something like this is going to need books and books and books worth of support, because not only is it unbelievable it makes no sense. Above all get understanding so that you know what belief is, what you are believing and why you are believing it. Also, salvation means different things to different folks. Some are trying to use the name of Jesus to save something that Jesus has no intention of saving. Jesus has no intention of saving your life. He does intend to help you lay down your so-called life...that you may take it up again as the Life of Christ.

[jo7241974]

Anyone who believes something like this is going to need books and books and books worth of support, because not only is it unbelievable it makes no sense. Above all get understanding so that you know what belief is, what you are believing and why you are believing it. Also, salvation means different things to different folks. Some are trying to use the name of Jesus to save something that Jesus has no intention of saving. Jesus has no intention of saving your life. He does intend to help you lay down your so-called life...that you may take it up again as the Life of Christ.

Hi UrbanMonk,

It is unbelievable that many think that the first step of accepting Christ does not need to be followed by additional steps, isn't it? I hope that by bringing up the teaching that continued after people accepted Jesus (aka, came to Jesus, were "saved"), it is clear that I believe there is much, much more involved with salvation than accepting Jesus. I look at being "saved" as the first step which is the entering at the wide gate. I see salvation as our journey on the straight and narrow path which WE take step by step. But we are not left to take those steps alone; the Holy Spirit is our companion.

Now, my purpose of creating this thread is to try to get all believers to ponder the questions posed. There are many who, once they are "saved" because they have accepted Christ, then add qualifiers to determine whether or not you really are saved. For instance, they determine that you must have the correct interpretations of doctrine. You must accept the correct concept of exactly what Christ looks like, not in the sense of viewing a photograph, but rather by nature, essence, the length of His existence, His exact relationship with Father, was He fully God AND fully man at the appropriate times while He walked the earth, etc., etc. You must adhere to creeds, the trinity, and other established rules for being "orthodox". Another unbelievable thing is, that these same people who established all of these rules then claim that if you do NOT agree with their rules, their interpretations, etc., they judge you unsaved, heretic, lost, NON-Christian!!!

So, they have determined there IS more necessary to being "saved" than merely accepting Christ. Their double-speak then becomes even more remarkable. They view other religions who say that more is necessary than accepting Christ, to be wrong!!! These other religions point to the teachings in the Bible, as I have already discussed, which are given after people joined the ancient Church, as evidence more is required. Orthodox Christianity says again, no, that one only needs to accept Christ, as long as you accept everything else they have determined is required (which obviously is more than mere acceptance of Christ). At the same time they tell you acceptance is the only requirement, they will argue EVERY point of doctrine with you.

My head hurts!!

I want to expose this strange standard of conducting and practicing their Christian beliefs. I also want everyone to really take a look at the possibilities I outlined in my opening OP and discuss their reactions and thoughts concerning my comments. Now, even though I do not agree with everything you believe, or with everything Vivian believes, I am not surprised that it is only the two of you who have responded so far. That's because you both seem to agree with the premise of my OP. Those who do not, who are stuck in the "orthodox" web, do not agree, and simply don't want to discuss it. I sincerely hope they change their minds and participate.

God bless,

jo

[wonbyone]

Hi UrbanMonk,

It is unbelievable that many think that the first step of accepting Christ does not need to be followed by additional steps, isn't it? I hope that by bringing up the teaching that continued after people accepted Jesus (aka, came to Jesus, were "saved"), it is clear that I believe there is much, much more involved with salvation than accepting Jesus. I look at being "saved" as the first step which is the entering at the wide gate. I see salvation as our journey on the straight and narrow path which WE take step by step. But we are not left to take those steps alone; the Holy Spirit is our companion.

Now, my purpose of creating this thread is to try to get all believers to ponder the questions posed. There are many who, once they are "saved" because they have accepted Christ, then add qualifiers to determine whether or not you really are saved. For instance, they determine that you must have the correct interpretations of doctrine. You must accept the correct concept of exactly what Christ looks like, not in the sense of viewing a photograph, but rather by nature, essence, the length of His existence, His exact relationship with Father, was He fully God AND fully man at the appropriate times while He walked the earth, etc., etc. You must adhere to creeds, the trinity, and other established rules for being "orthodox". Another unbelievable thing is, that these same people who established all of these rules then claim that if you do NOT agree with their rules, their interpretations, etc., they judge you unsaved, heretic, lost, NON-Christian!!!

So, they have determined there IS more necessary to being "saved" than merely accepting Christ. Their double-speak then becomes even more remarkable. They view other religions who say that more is necessary than accepting Christ, to be wrong!!! These other religions point to the teachings in the Bible, as I have already discussed, which are given after people joined the ancient Church, as evidence more is required. Orthodox Christianity says again, no, that one only needs to accept Christ, as long as you accept everything else they have determined is required (which obviously is more than mere acceptance of Christ). At the same time they tell you acceptance is the only requirement, they will argue EVERY point of doctrine with you.

My head hurts!!

I want to expose this strange standard of conducting and practicing their Christian beliefs. I also want everyone to really take a look at the possibilities I outlined in my opening OP and discuss their reactions and thoughts concerning my comments. Now, even though I do not agree with everything you believe, or with everything Vivian believes, I am not surprised that it is only the two of you who have responded so far. That's because you both seem to agree with the premise of my OP. Those who do not, who are stuck in the "orthodox" web, do not agree, and simply don't want to discuss it. I sincerely hope they change their minds and participate.

God bless,

jo

It's great to know that I can believe in any jesus I want and still be saved. Which Jesus do you recommend:
1. The jesus that swooned on the cross and was married to mary.
2. The jesus that is satans spirit brother.
3. The jesus that is also micheal the archangel
4. The jesus that was just a man who became indwelt by God.
5. The jesus that CP arrested.

[wonbyone]

Hi UrbanMonk,

It is unbelievable that many think that the first step of accepting Christ does not need to be followed by additional steps, isn't it? I hope that by bringing up the teaching that continued after people accepted Jesus (aka, came to Jesus, were "saved"), it is clear that I believe there is much, much more involved with salvation than accepting Jesus. I look at being "saved" as the first step which is the entering at the wide gate. I see salvation as our journey on the straight and narrow path which WE take step by step. But we are not left to take those steps alone; the Holy Spirit is our companion.

Now, my purpose of creating this thread is to try to get all believers to ponder the questions posed. There are many who, once they are "saved" because they have accepted Christ, then add qualifiers to determine whether or not you really are saved. For instance, they determine that you must have the correct interpretations of doctrine. You must accept the correct concept of exactly what Christ looks like, not in the sense of viewing a photograph, but rather by nature, essence, the length of His existence, His exact relationship with Father, was He fully God AND fully man at the appropriate times while He walked the earth, etc., etc. You must adhere to creeds, the trinity, and other established rules for being "orthodox". Another unbelievable thing is, that these same people who established all of these rules then claim that if you do NOT agree with their rules, their interpretations, etc., they judge you unsaved, heretic, lost, NON-Christian!!!

So, they have determined there IS more necessary to being "saved" than merely accepting Christ. Their double-speak then becomes even more remarkable. They view other religions who say that more is necessary than accepting Christ, to be wrong!!! These other religions point to the teachings in the Bible, as I have already discussed, which are given after people joined the ancient Church, as evidence more is required. Orthodox Christianity says again, no, that one only needs to accept Christ, as long as you accept everything else they have determined is required (which obviously is more than mere acceptance of Christ). At the same time they tell you acceptance is the only requirement, they will argue EVERY point of doctrine with you.

My head hurts!!

I want to expose this strange standard of conducting and practicing their Christian beliefs. I also want everyone to really take a look at the possibilities I outlined in my opening OP and discuss their reactions and thoughts concerning my comments. Now, even though I do not agree with everything you believe, or with everything Vivian believes, I am not surprised that it is only the two of you who have responded so far. That's because you both seem to agree with the premise of my OP. Those who do not, who are stuck in the "orthodox" web, do not agree, and simply don't want to discuss it. I sincerely hope they change their minds and participate.

God bless,

jo

Hmm...what was it that Paul told the jailor he must do in order to be saved? Oh yeah:
Acts 16:29-31
29And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he(AV) fell down before Paul and Silas. 30Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs,(AW) what must I do to be(AX) saved?" 31And they said,(AY) "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you(AZ) and your household."

[bling]

If you understand the objective everything clears up.

God is our example of being objective driven.

Eternal life in heaven is our God given birth right, as God’s children.

Unfortunately we still have free will and can “give up” our birth right like Esau gave up (sold) for some soup his birth right. BUT our birth rights cannot be taken away.
God is doing all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His free undeserving and unconditional gift. The gift is the most powerful force in all universes and even compels God to do all He does. Everything God does or allows to happen includes: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, hell, heaven and even sin is to help us fulfill our objective.

We are not trying to get ahead or earn something, by doing something. It is our honor and privilege to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us to bring Glory to God. Yes, we want to know what pleases God the same as we want to know what pleases our earthly father, but not to “earn” our birth right. We do not all go to heaven immediately after conversion like the thief on the cross, but what difference should that make? We still have free will and we can choose to give up heaven for the perceived pleasures of sin for a season, but that is our choice and should never be made if we are enjoying the Godly type Love we have been given. If you do not want Godly type Love, which compels you to work with the Spirit to allow Him to do great stuff, then God will not force you to keep it. We do not want to Love like God Loves because we quit using God’s Love and may even start doing stuff to earn something or out of pride. God’s Love can become worthless to us so we would sell it for nothing.

[Vivian]

Hmm...what was it that Paul told the jailor he must do in order to be saved? Oh yeah:
Acts 16:29-31
29And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he(AV) fell down before Paul and Silas. 30Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs,(AW) what must I do to be(AX) saved?" 31And they said,(AY) "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you(AZ) and your household."

Jesus called the path to eternal life difficult, Paul called it a race that required endurance, which brings to mind an athletic event, such as the Olympics.

A person seeking to win the gold at the Olympics will select as coach the one they most believe in. The one they believe has the power and ability to guide them into winning the race.

Will they ever reach the finish line, win the prize, if after selecting the coach they believe in, turn to a life as a coach potato?

And just imagine them still sitting there on the coach when the Olympics finally air, yelling at the TV I should have gotten the gold! I believed in the right coach, didn't I? I think it is to these Jesus said, get away from me I never knew you!

No where in the Bible does it say that Jesus will run the race for us, that Jesus will carry the cross for us. We still have to train, run, carry the cross, endure. The point is that in selecting Jesus as our One Teacher and Coach, we are assured of victory!

Shalom.

Viv

[OneSizeFit]

Jesus called the path to eternal life difficult

Jesus said the door is narrow, with 2.2 billion Christians it makes you wonder.

[Vivian]

Jesus said the door is narrow, with 2.2 billion Christians it makes you wonder.

thlibo

1) to press (as grapes), press hard upon
2) a compressed way
a) narrow straitened, contracted
3) metaph. to trouble, afflict, distress

You are assuming that all of the 2.2 billion people claiming to be Christians have actually found the narrow gate?

[Cow Poke]

5. The jesus that CP arrested.

He had long hair and spoke KJV, and he even blessed me.

[OneSizeFit]

thlibo

1) to press (as grapes), press hard upon
2) a compressed way
a) narrow straitened, contracted
3) metaph. to trouble, afflict, distress

You are assuming that all of the 2.2 billion people claiming to be Christians have actually found the narrow gate?

Quite the opposite. You read wrong.

In fact it implies the antithesis of saved by faith/doctrine.

[wonbyone]

He had long hair and spoke KJV, and he even blessed me.

[wonbyone]

Jesus called the path to eternal life difficult, Paul called it a race that required endurance, which brings to mind an athletic event, such as the Olympics.

A person seeking to win the gold at the Olympics will select as coach the one they most believe in. The one they believe has the power and ability to guide them into winning the race.

Will they ever reach the finish line, win the prize, if after selecting the coach they believe in, turn to a life as a coach potato?

And just imagine them still sitting there on the coach when the Olympics finally air, yelling at the TV I should have gotten the gold! I believed in the right coach, didn't I? I think it is to these Jesus said, get away from me I never knew you!

No where in the Bible does it say that Jesus will run the race for us, that Jesus will carry the cross for us. We still have to train, run, carry the cross, endure. The point is that in selecting Jesus as our One Teacher and Coach, we are assured of victory!

Shalom.

Viv

So in your opinion did Paul contradict Jesus?

[Vivian]

Quite the opposite. You read wrong.

In fact it implies the antithesis of saved by faith/doctrine.

I apologize! I ought to have everyone's doctrinal stance memorized!

I was going by your words in that post alone and could see one of two possibilities in them:

1. Implying that all 2.2 billion Christians had found the narrow gate, proving that our idea of narrow is not really what Jesus meant! [Cause 2.2 billion, especially with a 1700 year long tradition cannot possibly be wrong.]

or

2. Claiming to be Christian obviously does not mean that one has found the narrow gate. In other words 2.2 billion does not equate with 'few'.

Thanks for clarifying!

Viv