Difference in being saved vs working out salvation?

[Vivian]

Hello Vivian,

Happy Thanksgiving Oliver!

2Ti 3:10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness,
2Ti 3:11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra--which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me.
2Ti 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
2Ti 3:13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

I cannot ‘find’ the concept of ‘knowing’ salvation anywhere in the ‘sacred writings’ – however – one may have such an acquaintance with (knowledge of) ‘them’ that one will become ‘wise’ unto a salvation that is ‘through faith in Christ Jesus’. In essence, when one is saved one comes to know Jesus in a personal way – this IS a very personal salvation – one which can only be derived from a close, intimate, interpersonal relationship. But let me add that ‘my’ personal relationship with the Only Savior does not preclude, or exclude in any way, ‘your’ personal relationship with Him.

Indeed. In this journey, we each are called to be true to the highest that we know, I believe this is what Jesus meant when he spoke of doing truth.

To whom much is given, much is required.

For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

Interesting that you would quote Jesus in an attempt to defend ‘universal salvation’ – didn’t Jesus say that in the Last Day the ‘sheep’ will be separated from the ‘goats’ – the ‘sheep’ are to go to Eternal Life and the ‘goats’ to Eternal Punishment. Wasn’t it Jesus who predicted that in the Last Day many would say to Him ‘Lord, Lord, look at all the great and wonderful things WE DID in your Name’ – BUT – He will say to them ‘be gone from Me you WORKERS of iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU, go into Eternal Punishment’. Yes, Jesus did say ‘many are called BUT few are chosen’ – that statement is far from being ‘universal’ in scope – Jesus never implied that ‘all will be saved’. Paul is quite clear that, even in his day, there were ‘evil people and impostors’ who were ‘deceiving and being deceived’.

I believe we differ in a question of time. I do not believe that our journey is solely this life we are presently living. Nor, like many, do I believe that the term Eternal is speaking of a constant ongoing state that never changes, but of a constant ongoing law that will not change. When Jesus speaks of eternal punishment, he is not speaking of a punishment that for any one person will never cease, but of the law of punishment that is eternal. We move in and out of the unchanging eternal punishment in our journey, according to the law which Jesus describes. It continues on eternally, our presence in it does not.

Jesus in these verses is teaching about what the Jews called sin, and other traditions call karma.

Here we have one of those ‘points’ whereat we both agree – to a point, at least – that being that a ‘Spiritual awakening’ (the new birth from my vantage point) MUST OCCUR before a correct understanding of the ‘sacred writings’ may be garnered – for it is only through the ‘help’ of the Spirit that we are enlightened.



When Jesus spoke these words He was still in His pre-resurrection state speaking from the vantage point of His human experience – the same vantage point of the pre-resurrection Church. Based on the ‘prologue’ of John, I believe that ‘the Logos’ (Jesus, the Son) came, in human flesh, to demonstrate the close, intimate, interpersonal relationship He had with ‘the God’ (the Father and the Spirit) – as a demonstration of the close, intimate, interpersonal relationship ‘the Church’ could and would have with Him (Jesus).

Indeed. He did not have the relationship for us, but to show us the Way, to open up the Way, to become the Way for us to do the same.

While it is impossible to truly separate ‘the God’ into ‘parts’ or ‘personalities’ – still Jesus is clear in what He says – I suggest that one should be careful in what one implies – our hope of Glory IS ‘CHRIST IN US’.

When we find and know Christ in us, such talk begins to make more sense.

Customs change, this is true, but the ‘meaning’ of the word has not changed – lambano ‘means’ to take to oneself as an exclusive possession, to make ones’ own – when Jesus was described as the Head (the husband) of the Church (the wife) it was in the context of the authority of the husband over the wife and the submission of the wife to the authority of the husband – this is a ‘mystical’ ‘spiritual’ union it is not ‘physical’ or ‘sexual’ in any way – how odd that one who is sooo ‘into’ the ‘spiritual’ and ‘mystical’ should find it necessary to dwell on the ‘physical’ or ‘sexual’ – unless, you are suggesting that you are having physical sex with …

Peace & Love

One who has found and knows the beloved understands what Paul was speaking of when he spoke of this Mystery of Christ. Everything that we do, that we think, we say, we desire, in the physical, is rooted in our spiritual desire for God. Once we have known unity with God, we understand that all these things in the physical are shadows of that unity.

May all know the intimacy of their beloved.

Viv

[Vivian]

Hello Vivian,



Rom 11:6 But if it is by Grace, it is no longer on the basis of Works; otherwise Grace would no longer be Grace.

Here we are once again in agreement, works are the result of our having been saved for it is God who is at work within us to will and to work His good pleasure – these works are the result of God working in us and ought to be the evidence to us of our having been saved.



James IS wrong, for these evidences of God working in us are not the means by which we are saved – NO – they are the outcome of our salvation and the very proof of our salvation which is by Grace through Faith IN Christ Jesus.

I do not ‘throw out’ ALL that Jesus is purported to have said – only that which has been misrepresented by the ‘work-mongers’ within the pages of the NT/CT.

Peace & Love

Hi Oliver!

James said faith without works is dead.

John said those who belong to Christ will walk just as he did.

Jesus said, you will do greater works than I.

And Vivian said, when the Word is sown, and takes root and sprouts, faith will unfold, then love, then works.

We are all saying the same thing. If we claim faith, but have no works unfolding, then our faith is not true, dead, it is not unfolding or sprouting from the sown Word. Thus there will be no harvest, no eternal life.

Jesus spoke often of we being brought to maturity, and eternal life being like a mature crop being harvested.

Scripture does not contradict on this point.

Shalom!

Viv

[Oliver128]

Hello Vivian,

Indeed. In this journey, we each are called to be true to the highest that we know, I believe this is what Jesus meant when he spoke of doing truth.

There is only one place in the NT/CT where Jesus mentioned ‘does what is true’ and this word translated ‘does’ suggests a singular concluding action that brings about a final result. The verse in which it is found forms the concluding remark of a passage whose topic is centered about ‘believing’ in the Only Son of God, thus suggesting that the singular concluding action is, in fact, ‘believing’ in the Only Son of God.

In the preceding verse another word also translated ‘does’ actually implies an on-going continual ‘practice’ of actions not necessarily leading to conclusive end result – this word is associated with the ‘evil deeds’ of those who will not ‘believe’ in the Only Son of God.

I believe we differ in a question of time. I do not believe that our journey is solely this life we are presently living. Nor, like many, do I believe that the term Eternal is speaking of a constant ongoing state that never changes, but of a constant ongoing law that will not change. When Jesus speaks of eternal punishment, he is not speaking of a punishment that for any one person will never cease, but of the law of punishment that is eternal. We move in and out of the unchanging eternal punishment in our journey, according to the law which Jesus describes. It continues on eternally, our presence in it does not.

Jesus in these verses is teaching about what the Jews called sin, and other traditions call karma.

Interesting – BUT – this has no basis in ‘scripture’ – and you certainly can not put these ‘beliefs’ on the lips of Jesus. In Luke 19:19-31 Jesus spoke of a rich man and a poor man who both lived and died at about the same time. After death the rich man was found in a place of torment and the poor man in a place of comfort. The rich man asked that his brothers might be warned so that they would not come to the same end, but his request was denied. The point is that Jesus did not ‘believe’ people had a ‘second chance’ at getting things right. In the book of Hebrews it says ‘it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment’. Good luck with what you ‘believe’.

James said faith without works is dead.

John said those who belong to Christ will walk just as he did.

Jesus said, you will do greater works than I.

Texts taken out of context become mere pretexts.

And Vivian said, when the Word is sown, and takes root and sprouts, faith will unfold, then love, then works.

Humm… getting a little pompous here aren’t we?

We are all saying the same thing. If we claim faith, but have no works unfolding, then our faith is not true, dead, it is not unfolding or sprouting from the sown Word. Thus there will be no harvest, no eternal life.

NO – ‘you’ are not – James mistakenly likened the combination of Works and Faith as the means of acquiring salvation – John states the Christian’s walk is a result of already having acquired salvation – Jesus’ statement points to a future point in time for those He was speaking to – not the future church a as whole. And as for you – if there is no ‘eternal punishment’ then there can not be ‘eternal life’ for Jesus spoke of both eventualities in the same discourses – the sheep and the goats – the rich man and the poor man – the ‘fruit of the Spirit’ are not the means of our salvation – NO – they are the evidence of our salvation.

Jesus spoke often of being brought to maturity, and eternal life being like a mature crop being harvested.

WHERE? Chapter(s) & Verse(s)!

Peace & Love

[OtherCheek]

the fruits of the Spirit are not the means of our salvation; NO, they are the evidence of our salvation.

If someone shows "evidence" of salvation, does this mean they are saved?

[barnasha]

can anyone know if they are saved if they have not yet reached the day of judgment, the only time where being saved even matters?

a lot of people seem to think they can jump to a conclusion for a courtroom in which they are not the presiding judge.

[OtherCheek]

can anyone know if they are saved if they have not yet reached the day of judgment, the only time where being saved even matters?

a lot of people seem to think they can jump to a conclusion for a courtroom in which they are not the presiding judge.

Well said. There is a day of judgment-a day of facing the judge. And no one is exempted from facing the judge of all.

[Vivian]

WHERE? Chapter(s) & Verse(s)!

Peace & Love

Hi Oliver!

Here are a couple:

Matthew 13 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’

Mark 4 26 And He said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground, 27 and should sleep by night and rise by day, and the seed should sprout and grow, he himself does not know how. 28 For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head. 29 But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”

[Oliver128]

Hello OtherCheek,

If someone shows "evidence" of salvation, does this mean they are saved?

Perhaps – each individual must judge themselves as to whether they are saved.

1Jn 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
1Jn 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

When we ‘first’ believe in Jesus we receive the ‘new birth’, the Spirit indwells us and we are placed ‘in Christ’. Being ‘in Christ’ we have eternal life – already – we are not waiting for Judgment Day for this ‘gift’ – NO – we received the ‘gift’ when we first believed. The questions are; ‘Are we born-again?’ ‘Do we have the Spirit in us?’ ‘Are we in Christ?’ ‘Do we have the testimony of God in us?’ If we do, then we are saved.

The ‘evidence’ of the fruit of the Spirit is part of the testimony of God to us that we are saved. While this evidence may be observed by others its true purpose is to provide an internal confirmation of our salvation.

If you are asking if someone could ‘make a show’ of the fruit of the Spirit and not be saved after all – of course, the answer is yes – these are the ‘tares’ that are in among the ‘wheat’ – please note that the ‘wheat’ (the saved) are already the ‘wheat’ (the saved) and the ‘tares’ (the lost) remain the ‘tares’ (the lost) – ‘You must be born again.’

Peace & Love

[jo7241974]

Hi Oliver.

I have found that life or salvation is more of a sprouting. The Word is planted in us and if it takes root, gives sprout and grows, first we will see faith, then love, and then works will sprout leading us to life or salvation.

If works do not rise, then either the cycle has not reached maturation, or the initial seed did not take root. Yes, it is Grace that saves us, but if there are no works, then again, either Grace has not taken root, or it has not yet reached maturation.

James is not wrong. Jesus likewise says that we must obey, we must do, we must do the truth, we must 'give food to the hungry and drink to the thirsty'. If such works do not flow from us, if we do not produce good fruit, then we are a bad vine, using Jesus' analogy, and will be dug up and cast into the fire. This is not done in exclusion to our salvation, though. The fires that we will be cast into are purifying fires, so that maybe the next time The Word is planted in us, it will take root, grow and sprout!

One cannot throw out all that Jesus teaches! He is explaining the Gospel, explaining how Grace works, how it will save us.

Shalom!

Viv

Hi Viv,

When you presented Jesus' analogy of the bad vine being dug up and cast into the fire, I am reminded of the times Paul speaks of the same thing. See 1Tim 1:20 and 1Cor 5:5. He speaks of giving people over to satan so that their flesh can be destroyed so that their spirits can be saved! He also says in 1Tim 1:20 they were turned over to satan so that they would LEARN not to blaspheme. Wow! How simple this is to see once we understand what is being said. These individuals weren't being cast out as though they were to be lost for all of eternity for some sin they had committed when they knew better than to make such a choice. They were being cast into satan's clutches so that their suffering would bring them to the point of returning their attentions to righteousness. How often have we heard words which describe that a man has to fall all the way to the bottom before he will stand up and turn (or re-"turn") to God?

Shalom,

jo

[jo7241974]

Jo,

I can see that you and I have been reading from scripture and not the doctrines of men on this subject.

My apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

This website is, well, a spiderweb.

As a so called unorthodox Christian, (thank God), there is only one place to post. And usually, once someone "orthodox" discovers that, it is a gang of orthodox thugs that pounce on you.

I find this a very unfriendly neighborhood.

Well, back to your post #4. I read it and am glad that I did.

Salvation, as a gift, is open to anyone who wills to do Romans 10:9-10. Confess with mouth lord Jesus, and believe in heart God raised himself from the dead. God, by means of the works of Jesus Christ, made salvation that simple. I did not say easy, for to believe that God raised someone from the dead and to confess JC as lord may take some deep thought for some.

However, getting born the first time, even as getting born again, is simple. It is almost as if we just came along for the ride.

Learning to live after you are born takes work and instruction and instruction and work. Likewise, learning to live by God's standards after a person is born again. It takes instruction and work to get it right.

Your parents and my parents did not take away our lives from us the first time we filled your diapers, no matter how stinky. They cleaned us up and looked forward to the day that we would be potty trained. Our parents loved us enough to forgive and forget without taking away our lives. God is love, God is light, God would certainly do no less. As matter of fact, would He not even be more loving, gracious and merciful to His own kids. I John 3:1-3. We are sons (and daughters) of God NOW!

I apologize if it seems that I am preaching to the choir. That is not my intent. but you are onto something that I would love to reinforce in you so that it is unshakeable in your mind and heart.

Religious folk like to condemn and teach wrath and unforgiveness and all that diaper filler.

Romans 5:1 and Romans 8:1 tell us different.

Truthful folk will teach Romans 5:1 and Romans 8:1.

The reply to your post 4 is a prime example of the type of religious mockery that goes on around here.

When I am done here, I will go back to #4 and reply to the mocker.

Well, enjoy.

barley

Hi Barley!

With all of the new changes on Tweb, I just realized a few hours ago that my OP was active again. I am so happy you had a chance to read post #4 and respond!!!

I hope we get to continue reading and responding to each other here and on other threads.

God bless,

jo

[jo7241974]

Hello jo7241974,

This is in response to your first post (Post #1) in this thread – in your first paragraph you stipulate that this thread was intended to consider ‘ONLY what is contained in the Bible’ – yet you did not provide ‘verse one’ from that source to bolster even your most basic contention.

I have some 2 dozen electronic versions of the NT/CT and I can find no place where it even suggests that we are to ‘accept Christ as our Savior’ – nor can I find the ‘formula’ that states ‘believe and accept Jesus Christ as you Savior’ – I ‘know’ what you are trying to say (I think) but your phraseology is not contained in the Bible.

John 3:9 Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?"
John 3:10 Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?
John 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
John 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
John 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
John 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Therefore, ‘believing’ in the Name of the Son of God is all that is required to enter Eternal Life – but – you seem to be confusing the single requirement to be saved with the multiple evidences of our salvation. If you claim to ‘believe’ in the Name of the Son of God, but can point to no evidence of salvation in your ‘life’, then perhaps you have something to be concerned about – however, this is a ‘judgment call’ that only you can make. In any event, if there is even just a tiny bit of evidence of salvation in you ‘life’ – praise God, and seek the leading of the Spirit that those evidences might increase and thereby ‘conform you into the image of the Son’.

Up until now I have been talking about the Grace-based Gospel that I ‘believe’ to be the only true Gospel. There is a Works-based gospel contained within the NT/CT that the ‘Work-mongers’ will foist upon you. Do not fall for those who ‘deceive and are being deceived’ – those who speak about everything ‘under the sun’ except for the simple truth of the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

‘Man’ in ‘his’ natural state in always concerned about ‘doing’, thus the question “What must I ‘do’ to be saved?” – in Christ the believer need only be concerned with what has already been ‘done’ – on the cross our Lord exclaimed “It is finished!” – those words replaced our ‘doing’ with what He ‘did’.

Peace & Love

Hello Oliver128!

I apologize for trying to use the words used by so many on Tweb in order to try to be understood. I don't know if you have had the chance to read the first several posts of this OP, as they should clear up any misunderstanding. Part of the purpose of my OP is to discuss how many Christians here on Tweb claim to hold to a specific quality or step that needs to take place in order to be saved. But they practice their religion in a way which requires that that specific step must be understood in the exact way, and with the exact stipulations they have attached to it in order for that belief to be able to save someone else.

God bless!

jo

[OtherCheek]

Hello OtherCheek,



Perhaps – each individual must judge themselves as to whether they are saved.

1Jn 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
1Jn 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

When we ‘first’ believe in Jesus we receive the ‘new birth’, the Spirit indwells us and we are placed ‘in Christ’. Being ‘in Christ’ we have eternal life – already – we are not waiting for Judgment Day for this ‘gift’ – NO – we received the ‘gift’ when we first believed. The questions are; ‘Are we born-again?’ ‘Do we have the Spirit in us?’ ‘Are we in Christ?’ ‘Do we have the testimony of God in us?’ If we do, then we are saved.

The ‘evidence’ of the fruit of the Spirit is part of the testimony of God to us that we are saved. While this evidence may be observed by others its true purpose is to provide an internal confirmation of our salvation.

If you are asking if someone could ‘make a show’ of the fruit of the Spirit and not be saved after all – of course, the answer is yes – these are the ‘tares’ that are in among the ‘wheat’ – please note that the ‘wheat’ (the saved) are already the ‘wheat’ (the saved) and the ‘tares’ (the lost) remain the ‘tares’ (the lost) – ‘You must be born again.’

Peace & Love

So, observing the fruit of the Spirit is not a reliable way, then, to know God's people?

[barnasha]

Hello OtherCheek,

Perhaps – each individual must judge themselves as to whether they are saved.

so i need not worry about the day of judgment, I can judge myself and not worry about God's judgment?

[Oliver128]

Hello Jo,

I ‘understand’ your question(s) – but – are you open to the only answer? In Proverbs we are told that ‘there is a way that will seem right to man – but – that way is the way to death’. Jesus said, ‘I AM the way and no man comes to the Father but by me’. Jesus also said, ‘You must be born again’ – there are some things that one MUST agree with – MUST receive – MUST have to be saved. I agree that ‘the church’ and ‘others’ tend to add requirements, such as performing ‘works’, for one to prove they are truly saved – but consider this…

Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Our responsibility is to God alone – not to other men, that we must be ‘justified’ in their eyes – therefore, James’ pronouncement that one MUST prove the validity of ones Faith by performing ‘Works’ is not only against the Graciousness of God, it is a form of boasting – ‘my faith’s bigger than your faith ‘cause I do bigger works than you do’ – how silly and dishonoring of God’s Graciousness.

Peace & Love

[Oliver128]

Hello OtherCheek,

So, observing the fruit of the Spirit is not a reliable way, then, to know God's people?

Jesus said ‘you shall know them by their fruit’ – but – Jesus also said that some would come before Him on the Last Day and cry ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ – and yet He said to them ‘Be gone for I never knew you – you workers of iniquity.’ Some of Jesus’ final words were ‘Love one another, men shall know you are mine if you have Love for one another’ – the first, and most important ‘fruit of the Spirit’ is Love – seek to bear such fruit.

Peace & Love