Difference in being saved vs working out salvation?

[Oliver128]

Hello barnasha

I don't see the point in postulating an "action-based" or "grace-based" Good Word. Why? What of Jesus' Good Word involve "grace" do you think?

Well… consider your signature as an example – it is ‘overflowing’ with Grace…

And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
(Luke 11:9-10)

The entire ‘incarnation’ is an expression of God’s Grace toward Mankind…

The Title of this Thread:

“Difference in ‘being saved’ vs ‘working out salvation’ ” – there IS NO difference – except…

‘we’ did NO WORK (other than to seek, ask, find and thereby ‘believe’) to earn ‘our’ salvation – AND – ‘we’ can do NO WORK to sustain or maintain our status within God’s Grace – NOW – ‘we’ DO WORK because ‘we’ ARE SAVED – NOT – because ‘we’ are BEING SAVED through ‘our’ works

Peace & Love

[barnasha]

Any salvation which can be gained through logic isn't necessarily of much worth, a madman can surmise he is "saved" but what power does that construction hold?

[Oliver128]

Hello barnasha,

Any salvation which can be gained through logic isn't necessarily of much worth, a madman can surmise he is "saved" but what power does that construction hold?

I’m certain that there is some logical premise in this statement but I seem to have missed it – please explain.

Peace & Love

[barnasha]

If a man is drowning in a river, he can convince himself he is at the riverbank and standing on solid ground, if it makes him feel better. But it doesn't mean it's true.

[FarEastBird]

If a man is drowning in a river, he can convince himself he is at the riverbank and standing on solid ground, if it makes him feel better. But it doesn't mean it's true.

I believe this is the reason the bible distiguishes WISDOM with KNOWLEDGE. Perfection is about maturity not of merely having knowledge. Young people can have greater knowledge than adults, but it does not mean that they are mature than adults. Arminians and Calvinists can understand each other, but when they come up, and also adhere, to different conclusions: that is where wisdom counts. Christian salvation is not about acknowledging that Christ saved us through the cross, salvation comes through understanding, or gaining the wisdom, that is implicated in of Christ's salvation through the cross. In wisdom comes faith. Faith is not a "trust"; for faith has the essense of certainty.


Sincerely,
FEB

[Oliver128]

When I first became a true believer I was told many things about how one is saved. One example may be described as synergistic – that is, the saved person somehow ‘works’ along side God to affect his salvation. Another example may be described as monistic – that is, God saves without any ‘assistance’ from the saved person. There is an old hymn entitled ‘Throw out the Life-line’; it envisions the lost sinner adrift in turbulent seas when the rescuer (the Evangelist) throws him a rope (the Gospel) the sinner grasps the rope (believes the Gospel) and ‘holds on for dear life’ as he is drawn to the safety of the rescue ship (Jesus). This is a synergistic approach to salvation – and it is no where supported in the CT. (At least in my opinion) Now for the monistic approach as presented in Matthew 14, Jesus approaches the boat containing the disciples, walking on the water, when Peter sees Him he calls Lord let me come to you, Jesus agrees, at first Peter is doing OK but he takes his eyes off Jesus and seeing the wind and waves he begins to sink – Peter cries out ‘Lord save me’ – and Jesus immediately reaches out and takes hold of him. Note that it was Jesus that did the grasping and the holding on. Peter’s salvation was the direct result of the actions of Jesus, all Peter did was ask.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

One day, while at an evangelistic meeting, God ‘spoke’ to my heart, as I heard His ‘word’ preached – I realized ’I’ was a lost sinner – and I asked Him to save me – and He did.

[barnasha]

many people say 'saved' but they just use the word and accept whatever hidden meanings have come along with it in their culture.

how few actually know what is being saved, and from what? what is redemption, in simple terms?

for some realizing they err and "are sinners" may be a very helpful realization for them, but i still don't think it's going to mean sin will never happen

[OneSizeFit]

many people say 'saved' but they just use the word and accept whatever hidden meanings have come along with it in their culture.

how few actually know what is being saved, and from what? what is redemption, in simple terms?

for some realizing they err and "are sinners" may be a very helpful realization for them, but i still don't think it's going to mean sin will never happen

Jesus came for the sinners, not the righteous. So being saved, IMO, is more so being saved from your sinful nature, your are being saved from yourself, and drawn into walking with the Lord God. Perhaps, the naturally righteous do not need Christ? Who knows...

[barnasha]

I never heard Jesus use the word 'sinners' to describe us.

[Oliver128]

Hello FarEastBird,

Christian salvation is not about acknowledging that Christ saved us through the cross, salvation comes through understanding, or gaining the wisdom, that is implicated in of Christ's salvation through the cross. In wisdom comes faith. Faith is not a "trust"; for faith has the essense of certainty.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Faith – Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

Trust – Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing.

Belief – The mental act of placing trust or confidence in another – Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something.

Pisteuo (from pistis); to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - to believe, to commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Pistis (from peitho); persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Peitho; A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

Wisdom or knowledge or understanding, in and of themselves, are insufficient to bring about ‘salvation’ – for one may be wise and possess great understanding and knowledge, yet not have the conviction to entrust everything to it.

Are you, perhaps, a neo-gnostic of sorts?

Peace & Love

[Oliver128]

Hello barnasha,

I too have never ‘heard’ Jesus use the word to describe ‘us’ but Luke reports that the word did cross His lips:

Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Kidding aside – ‘we’ are saved from ‘our’ sinful condition and its penalty – which is death.

But you have highlighted an important point – that ‘we’ argue about words that each of ‘us’ may have different ‘understandings ’of – this results in much frivolous banter.

Peace & Love

[OneSizeFit]

I never heard Jesus use the word 'sinners' to describe us.

What? Jesus came for the sinners not the righteous. He came for the unpure, not the priests. God is available to all, not just the priestly class.

"Healthy people don't need a doctor - sick people do. I have come to call sinners, not those who think they are already good enough."

[barnasha]

Hello barnasha,

I too have never ‘heard’ Jesus use the word to describe ‘us’ but Luke reports that the word did cross His lips:

Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Kidding aside – ‘we’ are saved from ‘our’ sinful condition and its penalty – which is death.

But you have highlighted an important point – that ‘we’ argue about words that each of ‘us’ may have different ‘understandings ’of – this results in much frivolous banter.

Peace & Love

Thanks for sharing this finding.

My point is that many Christians like to refer to people as sinners and even take it farther into a spiral of self-deprecation.

this is not the heavenly or princely way.

The way of heaven is the positive, Jesus always had good things to say about people (except the religious elite who pervert the way of God and teach the perversion to others). Encouraging people and calling them "able to rid themselves of sin in their daily actions" is a "white art".


The way of the devil is the negative. Calling ourselves horrible rotten no-good sinners is a "black art", at face value.

[Oliver128]

| S A L V A T I O N |
| Justification | Sanctification | Glorification |

Salvation may be looked at as a process comprised of three elements or stages of development.

Justification, the initial element, is a one time event that occurs at the outset of the Salvation experience. The person is ‘born-again’ – is passed from death into life – and is imputed with the righteousness of Christ. Man is not able to earn or put into effect ‘his’ own justification before God – put another way – ‘by the works of the Law shall no man be justified in His sight’ – justification is granted by God’s Grace through Faith in (Trust in – Confidence in – Reliance on) Jesus Christ for one’s Salvation. Justification comes not as a result of anyone’s works, lest one is able to boast in ‘his’ works and steal God’s glory thereby. Justification is the Free Gift of God’s Grace, it cannot be earned; it can only be received.

Sanctification, the next element, is the ‘process’ by which God will conform the believer into the ‘image’ of His Son. Sanctification is an on-going process that looks for its ultimate completion at the Glorification of the believer. It is God that carries out this process in its entirety, while the believer (by virtue of the ‘new birth’) may be a willing and co-operative participant. There is no anticipation that the believer will be made ‘perfect’ while ‘he’ is still in possession of ‘his’ earthly / fleshly / natural body – only when this corruptible has ‘put on’ the incorruptible will this process be completed. The believer should find evidence within ‘him’ that this process IS on-going and that the ‘Fruit of the Spirit’ are increasing in growth within ‘him’. Most importantly there will be the testimony of the Spirit to the believer’s spirit that ‘he’ IS a child of God and that ‘he’ IS saved.

Glorification, the final element, is also a one time event that concludes the Salvation experience. For those who remain until the ‘Parousia’ will be changed (Glorified) – in an instant – in the twinkling of an eye – and they will be ‘caught-up’ (raptured) with Him in the air – and there shall they ever be. But they will not precede those who have gone (to sleep in Christ) before, who will also be ‘raised-up’ (resurrected) on that day. Once again, there is no human working that can cause this to happen – nor does any human contribution make it possible – it is all done by God.

It is within this framework of Salvation that I ‘interpret’ the CT – when there are passages that seem to indicate that ‘I’ should be somehow ‘working’ to effect or enhance my salvation, I ‘interpret’ these as exhortations toward having a willing and co-operative spirit and not as these actions contribute to or enhance my ‘good standing’ or ‘justification’ before my God, who is the only Redeemer and Savior.

Peace & Love

[Oliver128]

Hello barnasha,

Thanks for sharing this finding.

My point is that many Christians like to refer to people as sinners and even take it farther into a spiral of self-deprecation.

this is not the heavenly or princely way.

The way of heaven is the positive, Jesus always had good things to say about people (except the religious elite who pervert the way of God and teach the perversion to others). Encouraging people and calling them "able to rid themselves of sin in their daily actions" is a "white art".

The way of the devil is the negative. Calling ourselves horrible rotten no-good sinners is a "black art", at face value.

So, is it fair to say that you consider Christians calling all people ‘sinners’ (themselves included) as Satanic?

Since, as you intimate, Jesus encouraged people to ‘rid themselves of sin’, would that not mean that Jesus considered those very people to be ‘sinners’?

My point in quoting Jesus’ comment about the one sinner and the ninety-nine (self)righteous ones was to illustrate the need for everyone to recognize their own sinfulness in order to repent and seek God’s Grace.

Rom 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one”

Satan may appear as an angel of light and is able to deceive – possibly even the Elect.

Peace & Love