Difference in being saved vs working out salvation?

[justsumguy]

Hello Oliver,
It appears we are partially of the same opinion. I agree that we do not possess our salvation merely by having our sins forgiven.
I do not agree that we are 'declared' righteous when we are not. Jesus taught against such ideas often especially in Matthew 23 where he concluded:
Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Now you have listed a delightful teaching from Hebrews, but it does not prove the points you and I agree upon, nor does it disprove them.

Shalom and blessings!

Viv

The entire point with the Pharisee is that the Pharisee was declaring the Pharisee righteous. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus declaring someone righteous and them not being righteous.

And I have seen no evidence that anyone who thinks they are doing what it takes (and that is exactly what you have to be thinking or you cannot be saved) to be saved is not a Pharisee.

Again, it's the entire point. Everyone wants to act like the Pharisees, Sadducees, High Priests, elders and scribes were a bunch of evil, twisted demons eaten up with their own self-righteousness. It's a concept that seems too far-fetched for me. I think it's pretty simple. I think they were teaching that the people had to work their way to God (and the lead guys had to be the best at working it out) and I think the same has been done in the name of Christ for centuries and is in full bloom today and I think anyone who reads the first four books in the NT and doesn't see that this is the main point of the story has been baptized by the same guys into the self-righteous work of saving themselves.

I can see it now. The woman comes into the Pharisee's house and starts cleaning Jesus's feet. The Pharisee scoffs because Jesus doesn't recognize the woman is a sinner (come on everybody - we all know good and well that there are alot of you who don't REALLY consider yourselves sinners now - that is REALLY reserved for the REAL sinners - come on now...admit it) and Jesus tells the Pharisee the woman's sins are forgiven....WHY???....they are forgiven because she loved much.

Oh the horror! It's that stupid love thing again. The sinner loves much and Jesus forgave her sins. It's not just a verse. It's a complete story.

And I'm supposed to believe that the woman leaves and since the woman doesn't do whatever convoluted, mysterious, nobody can know what exactly she would need to do to be saved...(well...alot of people think they do and insist they do but if we demand they tell us...we're going to get a convoluted, mysterious, nobody can know exactly what they're talking about answer)...she dies three weeks and six sins later and isn't saved from whatever it is she might could've been saved from.

I don't think so. What I do think is that whatever those Pharisees had going on...it's still alive and well.

[barley]

Receiving salvation as a gift is one thing. Do something with it is quite another. Receiving a gift take but a moment in time. Putting it to use is a lifelong action. Working out something you have inside is our responsibility upon receiving salvation. Ephesians 2:8-10. Salvation is a gift. Now having received salvation, we have works to do which God ordained that we should walk in.

barley

[Vivian]

Hi justsumguy!

The entire point with the Pharisee is that the Pharisee was declaring the Pharisee righteous. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus declaring someone righteous and them not being righteous.

How about something or someone claiming that Jesus is declaring someone righteous when they are not? That is what I am addressing, our claims at being 'clothed in the righteousness of Christ' based on our interpretations of scripture. That is just what the Pharisees were doing: claiming they were righteous by clothing themselves with the law based on their interpretation of scripture.

And I have seen no evidence that anyone who thinks they are doing what it takes (and that is exactly what you have to be thinking or you cannot be saved) to be saved is not a Pharisee.

I think this addresses our difference in beliefs regarding what is righteousness? I believe that righteousness is purity of heart which allows us to love God with all our being and love others as our selves. I do not believe that righteousness in obeying a set of rules, which is what the Pharisees thought - they clothed themselves in obedience to a set of rules, while their heart remained impure, and they did not love.

...for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. Romans 13:8

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17

The law was given to show humanity how they do not love, and to teach them how to love. In this learning and disciplining and transformation process, so that we can be reborn in Spirit, our hearts our purified by Grace. This is working out our salvation.

Again, it's the entire point. Everyone wants to act like the Pharisees, Sadducees, High Priests, elders and scribes were a bunch of evil, twisted demons eaten up with their own self-righteousness. It's a concept that seems too far-fetched for me. I think it's pretty simple. I think they were teaching that the people had to work their way to God (and the lead guys had to be the best at working it out) and I think the same has been done in the name of Christ for centuries and is in full bloom today and I think anyone who reads the first four books in the NT and doesn't see that this is the main point of the story has been baptized by the same guys into the self-righteous work of saving themselves.

Yes, I agree! Self-righteousness is the appearance of righteousness, of clothing oneself in obedience to a set of rules, clothing oneself in a religion, or in a belief structure, without ever learning how to love. These are the hypocrites.

I can see it now. The woman comes into the Pharisee's house and starts cleaning Jesus's feet. The Pharisee scoffs because Jesus doesn't recognize the woman is a sinner (come on everybody - we all know good and well that there are alot of you who don't REALLY consider yourselves sinners now - that is REALLY reserved for the REAL sinners - come on now...admit it) and Jesus tells the Pharisee the woman's sins are forgiven....WHY???....they are forgiven because she loved much.

Exactly! Why were her sins forgiven? Because she had learned how to love. Her heart had been purified. Righteousness is love.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because


“ All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.”

Oh the horror! It's that stupid love thing again. The sinner loves much and Jesus forgave her sins. It's not just a verse. It's a complete story.

Indeed. The bigger picture is how she came to love...as Peter says it is by purif(ing) (y)our souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren . Obeying the truth through the Spirit. Now understanding that line takes some their entire life!

And I'm supposed to believe that the woman leaves and since the woman doesn't do whatever convoluted, mysterious, nobody can know what exactly she would need to do to be saved...(well...alot of people think they do and insist they do but if we demand they tell us...we're going to get a convoluted, mysterious, nobody can know exactly what they're talking about answer)...she dies three weeks and six sins later and isn't saved from whatever it is she might could've been saved from.

I don't think so. What I do think is that whatever those Pharisees had going on...it's still alive and well.

Yes, this is a convolution of scripture founded in the idea that giving the appearance of righteousness is righteousness. It is only through purifying our hearts, through obeying the truth - not a set of rules, but the truth which has something to do with Spirit, not with a book or with creeds or religions. Something we each have to discover.

If one read scripture again looking to be made righteous, something new might be seen. Often scripture speaks of this truth.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath...

does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth

And the list goes on and on.

If we are not able to love, if we are still in bondage to sin and iniquity, it is because we have not yet found the truth. The truth is much more than mental concepts, although it can be partially expressed with words. It is awareness, awakening, seeing, perceiving, knowing, in a spiritual sense. So that we no longer fear, we are no longer bound by death of our physical bodies. We no longer have these desires and aversions that cause us to mistreat others. This journey requires the forgiveness of sins in the way that sin causes debt, and so that when we do not act with love, we become indebted - the sin is 'written' on our soul and we cannot move forward in our learning to love unless we undo the debt. Forgiveness of sins allows us to move forward in our transformation, in the purifying of hearts, by just recognizing our error and repenting, and then getting back on track. Forgiveness means we do not have to pay the debt of the sin, and are free to move forward in our soul evolution towards salvation - being purified by the Spirit of Truth, by Grace.

And so my friend, you are right. It is not about clothing our selves in doing this good deed or that, it is about being transformed by truth from the inside out. When our hearts become pure, then we can be re-born in Spirit and thus be clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

Shalom!

Viv

[Oliver128]

Hello Vivian,

As shared, in Hebrew and Aramaic, name means one's attributes, powers, abilities, so believing in the Name of Christ for healing and salvation is believing that he can heal us, perfect us, and save us. Name did not refer to who a person was in terms of geneology or birthright, but who they were in terms of attributes and power. You might recall that God has a way of changing names when a person has undergone a spiritual transformation. New spiritual powers and attributes resulted in a new name.

I do agree that God saves us, but believing/trusting and having faith is participating in the process. If you look at all those who came to Jesus to be healed - their belief resulted in action - approaching Jesus with confidence and faith, and then he often times said your faith has healed you. Not I have healed you but your faith has healed you. That is participation.

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

If ‘salvation’ was the result of a ‘work of faith’ then it would no longer be a ‘gift of grace’ – if ‘salvation’ could be earned by any means ‘we’ would have something to boast about – but since ‘salvation’ cannot be earned by any means, but is a free gift, then ‘we’ have nothing to boast about. Therefore, because ‘salvation’ is a free gift of God’s grace, what you suggest is efficacious participation actually has no effect on our ‘salvation’ and it is only by Grace through Faith in Christ Jesus, which is itself the gift of God, not as a result of any works, that is efficacious toward our ‘salvation’, lest any should have reason to boast.

Peace & Love

[Oliver128]

Hello,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Please note there are no ‘human’ works involved in our salvation (2:8-9) BUT GOD ALONE is totally responsible for the works that bring about our salvation – we are saved as a result of HIS handiwork and any ‘good works’ that follow are works that were pre-prepared BY GOD so that not even those ‘works’ are ‘ours’.

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Once again – it is GOD who is at work to do HIS good pleasure through us – we are willingly co-operating with the leading of the Spirit – BUT we do not get nor can we claim any credit for what HE does through us.

Jesus gave the exemplar prayer ‘Father… Your will be done – on earth as it is in heaven’ later Jesus prayed ‘not My will but Your will be done’ – stop striving to do the will of God, your efforts will prove worthless – just step aside and let Him do His will through you, He knows best how to get it done.

Abraham believed God and his faith was accounted for righteousness – it was nearly 30 years before he was lead of God to offer up Isaac – in between time he lied about his marital relationship to Sarah and procreated his own heir to the promise God had made – in the end God worked things out according to His own will and good pleasure – word of advice – let God do the work and be satisfied with His accomplishments.

Peace & Love

[Vivian]

Greetings my friend!

In English, the depth of meaning of scripture is clouded, being first clouded by their translation from the multidimensional languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and even Greek, into a very linear superficial language - more so than even English - Latin. And so what you offer to support your understanding, based in the linear thinking inspired by English, I see as supporting my understanding. This is not an insult, only a statement of fact.

So let us dive into your quotes together:

Hello Vivian,



Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Indeed. The purpose of the Law is not so that we have a recipe for righteousness, but so that we can see our sin. Righteousness occurs first in the heart and then flows from there.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Yes. Righteousness is not had by clothing ourselves in the Law - it comes from faith. It is a transformation of our hearts that occurs through the work of Grace, able to be done because we believe. We trust. Our belief becoming a power through which we are reached, touched and transformed. Or as Jesus says, perfected, made whole.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Indeed. Thinking we are righteous because we know how to obey a set of rules is foolish, hypocritical, for righteousness is of the heart, flows from our heart. All of us will sin, and will fall short and so a Way has been given to us, through the mysteries of Ransom, Forgiveness - Love, so that we might receive the blessings of Grace and be made new.

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Yes, it is a gift. It is not something we earn through our obedience. Nor is it something we earn through our belief. It is something that is freely available if we make ourselves able to receive. This being able to receive, Jesus refers to at times as abiding in my Word. It is also called aligning ourselves with Christ, letting him be our Master.

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Indeed, we cannot clothe ourselves in works, in the Law, in belief, done this identity or that and be righteous. Righteousness flows from a pure heart, and so our heart must be purified.

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Yes, it is a free gift. But like any gift it is useless unless we use it. Grace is something that we are given and then put on a shelf and say, hey look I have the gift of Grace. It is something that must be put to use, put to work. Grace does the work, but we must receive the gift and put it to work. Which occurs as we follow the commandments or instructions that Jesus left us. Jesus's commandments are not about doing works, they are about putting or allowing the free Gift of Grace to work in us.

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Indeed it is a gift, but one that must be received and used.

If ‘salvation’ was the result of a ‘work of faith’ then it would no longer be a ‘gift of grace’ – if ‘salvation’ could be earned by any means ‘we’ would have something to boast about – but since ‘salvation’ cannot be earned by any means, but is a free gift, then ‘we’ have nothing to boast about. Therefore, because ‘salvation’ is a free gift of God’s grace, what you suggest is efficacious participation actually has no effect on our ‘salvation’ and it is only by Grace through Faith in Christ Jesus, which is itself the gift of God, not as a result of any works, that is efficacious toward our ‘salvation’, lest any should have reason to boast.

Because the gift is free does not mean that we do not have to receive it and that we do not have to put it to work, or use it.

If I might offer the problem with languages. If one is educated in Hebrew, Aramaic, or even Greek, they will see that salvation is not a one time even, but an ongoing process. Salvation is not a noun but a verb, a movement that we join with. Working out our salvation is joining with the movement of salvation. And yes, salvation is all the things you say it is, but it is not an event in time and space but an eternal Truth, that we can either join with in this life or not. And yes we can join with the movement of salvation one moment, and separate from it the next. It all depends on where our treasure is, where our heart it.

If we die and our treasure or heart is with something other than salvation, or the heavenly treasures outside of time and space, we will not join in the movement on the other side of the grave. Joining in the movement of salvation means that death is not death, for we have connected with something more than name and form, something that transcends these things and so we will not die when our name and form dies. Death of name and form will have no sting!

Shalom!

Viv

[Vivian]

Hello,

Hello again.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are his workmanship, or we can be, if we allow him to work in us. We do not earn our salvation by allowing him to work in us, we join in salvation by allowing him to work in us, by becoming his workmanship.

If we do not allow ourselves to become his workmanship (meaning he is working in us, transforming us) then we are not working out our salvation, we have thus separated ourself from this heavenly treasure, this Truth. We are not doing Truth. And yes, when we join in salvation, we will walk in the good works that he has prepared for us. For that will be our desire, our desire for the things of heaven. If our heart has been purified then our desire is for the good works that he has prepared for us to do. If our heart has not been purified, we will not desire these things and we will not do them, thus walking separated from salvation, returning to dust when our name and form dies.

Please note there are no ‘human’ works involved in our salvation (2:8-9) BUT GOD ALONE is totally responsible for the works that bring about our salvation – we are saved as a result of HIS handiwork and any ‘good works’ that follow are works that were pre-prepared BY GOD so that not even those ‘works’ are ‘ours’.

Right. I have said this. Good works occur because we desire to do them, our treasure is in the heavenly things - things that we are now able to see, perceive know, and so we know ourselves as more than the name and form that dies at the end of our life hear, we know our selves as heavenly beings, as spirit and will continue on after our physical name and form passes on.

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Exactly! Through our obedience God is able to work in us...as you have always done, as you have always obeyed, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, because God is working in you.

We obey.
Thus we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Thus God is working in us.

See? We obey and then God is working in us.

Once again – it is GOD who is at work to do HIS good pleasure through us – we are willingly co-operating with the leading of the Spirit – BUT we do not get nor can we claim any credit for what HE does through us.

Indeed. And if God is working in us, then we will know it. If he is not, if we are not finding ourselves freed from sin, then we will also know that. And if God is not working in us, if we are not finding ourselves increasingly free from sin, then we obviously are not joined in the Truth of salvation. Yes?

Jesus gave the exemplar prayer ‘Father… Your will be done – on earth as it is in heaven’ later Jesus prayed ‘not My will but Your will be done’ – stop striving to do the will of God, your efforts will prove worthless – just step aside and let Him do His will through you, He knows best how to get it done.

Yes, we call this the doer - it is the doer who tries to clothe himself in righteous deeds, or in certain beliefs. The one of faith allows Grace to be received and to work, and then from true desire to do good, just for the sake of doing good, just because we are delighted in doing good - indicating that our heart has been purified, the good works of Christ will manifest and flow through us. Our heart now bearing a semblance to the Heart of Christ.

Abraham believed God and his faith was accounted for righteousness – it was nearly 30 years before he was lead of God to offer up Isaac – in between time he lied about his marital relationship to Sarah and procreated his own heir to the promise God had made – in the end God worked things out according to His own will and good pleasure – word of advice – let God do the work and be satisfied with His accomplishments.

Yes, he believed God and had faith - which is evidenced in his obedience. Obeying out of love and faith, not out of getting anything for himself. Obeying out of love, thus finding joy in obedience. Faith is righteousness, so is obedience from a pure heart or a place of love.

Shalom!

Viv

[justsumguy]

Receiving salvation as a gift is one thing. Do something with it is quite another. Receiving a gift take but a moment in time. Putting it to use is a lifelong action. Working out something you have inside is our responsibility upon receiving salvation. Ephesians 2:8-10. Salvation is a gift. Now having received salvation, we have works to do which God ordained that we should walk in.

barley

Receiving a gift of salvation is one thing. Ok...how big a thing is that?
Ok...and now you have works to do. Ok...what percentage of success at this working does it take to achieve what degree of reward?
I know you fall short of what you have been ordained to do. So tell me...at what level are you currently at and what is the consequence for your shortcoming? And...for those who are below your level...what is their consequence?

[justsumguy]

Hi justsumguy!
How about something or someone claiming that Jesus is declaring someone righteous when they are not? That is what I am addressing, our claims at being 'clothed in the righteousness of Christ' based on our interpretations of scripture. That is just what the Pharisees were doing: claiming they were righteous by clothing themselves with the law based on their interpretation of scripture.
I think this addresses our difference in beliefs regarding what is righteousness? I believe that righteousness is purity of heart which allows us to love God with all our being and love others as our selves. I do not believe that righteousness in obeying a set of rules, which is what the Pharisees thought - they clothed themselves in obedience to a set of rules, while their heart remained impure, and they did not love.
...for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. Romans 13:8
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17
The law was given to show humanity how they do not love, and to teach them how to love. In this learning and disciplining and transformation process, so that we can be reborn in Spirit, our hearts our purified by Grace. This is working out our salvation.
Yes, I agree! Self-righteousness is the appearance of righteousness, of clothing oneself in obedience to a set of rules, clothing oneself in a religion, or in a belief structure, without ever learning how to love. These are the hypocrites.
Exactly! Why were her sins forgiven? Because she had learned how to love. Her heart had been purified. Righteousness is love.
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because “ All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.”
Indeed. The bigger picture is how she came to love...as Peter says it is by purif(ing) (y)our souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren . Obeying the truth through the Spirit. Now understanding that line takes some their entire life!
Yes, this is a convolution of scripture founded in the idea that giving the appearance of righteousness is righteousness. It is only through purifying our hearts, through obeying the truth - not a set of rules, but the truth which has something to do with Spirit, not with a book or with creeds or religions. Something we each have to discover.
If one read scripture again looking to be made righteous, something new might be seen. Often scripture speaks of this truth.
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath...
does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth
And the list goes on and on.
If we are not able to love, if we are still in bondage to sin and iniquity, it is because we have not yet found the truth. The truth is much more than mental concepts, although it can be partially expressed with words. It is awareness, awakening, seeing, perceiving, knowing, in a spiritual sense. So that we no longer fear, we are no longer bound by death of our physical bodies. We no longer have these desires and aversions that cause us to mistreat others. This journey requires the forgiveness of sins in the way that sin causes debt, and so that when we do not act with love, we become indebted - the sin is 'written' on our soul and we cannot move forward in our learning to love unless we undo the debt. Forgiveness of sins allows us to move forward in our transformation, in the purifying of hearts, by just recognizing our error and repenting, and then getting back on track. Forgiveness means we do not have to pay the debt of the sin, and are free to move forward in our soul evolution towards salvation - being purified by the Spirit of Truth, by Grace.
And so my friend, you are right. It is not about clothing our selves in doing this good deed or that, it is about being transformed by truth from the inside out. When our hearts become pure, then we can be re-born in Spirit and thus be clothed in the righteousness of Christ.
Shalom!
Viv

Hi Viv, that was great. It had me laughing (in a good way as related to my abrasive post).Ok...we're on the same page with all of that.
But...I still sense an underlying if, and or but in your post
Working out our salvation is not working on our salvation. As seems evident in the Christian world, people come to accept Christ as savior from many different angles. I accepted Christ when I was 7 years old.
I think most of us here would agree that the scriptures can speak to us no matter where we are in life. To say that this passage means that would seem to be a little presumptuous of us. I would say it depends on where you are at.
For instance, I say that all those works we are admonished to do are actually results of knowing the truth. Depending on where a person first is when they first come to believe, the journey to knowing can greatly vary. Hopefully, we come to know more and more of the substance of things hoped for (there is coming to realize more of what it is we hope for) and the evidence of things not seen. Hopefully our faith becomes stronger. Our realization of faith isn't building anything that isn't there already. The faith is already there in it's entirety. Our efforts are involved in coming to know that which really is.
In reality, humility isn't something one builds or achieves by sacrifice. Humility is a direct result of knowing that we are powerless. There is a measure of powerlessness in anyone at no matter what "level" they first enter the picture of recognizing their need for Christ, but the recognition of total powerlessness may occur at the beginning, 20 years later or not during this lifetime. When one truly realizes the fact that they have nothing to bring to the table, humility is an automatic, through and through result. I have to add, if one thinks that truly realizing the fact was due to their commitment to realize it, then they haven’t truly realized their powerlessness.
It’s this simple…in the end…we are headed for perfect eternity…the presence of God.
There is no commitment you or I can make that would secure our place in perfect eternity. Why, because we aren’t perfect. Not being perfect isn’t something we can dismiss with close enough. There is no close enough to perfect that can be a part of perfect. Realization of this fact results in total humility.
That example can be played out with every single thing we are admonished to do, including love. Our love cannot secure us a place in perfect. Our repentance cannot secure us a place in perfect. Our best efforts at any of these things would be in our desire to love with all our heart and our desire to be fully repentant. Even that isn’t going to work (notice the word “work”) because our desire to be perfect isn’t perfect either.
We only have one way to come to the perfect Father. It’s as simple as that. I have accepted the fact that Christ is my savior and the work is a result of that fact. As far as I know, if one doesn’t accept the fact, one’s work is working out the fact.

[Oliver128]

Hello Vivian,

You suggest that you have an unusually deep understanding of Aramaic, Hebrew and now Greek, yet when you offer your ‘analysis’ you don’t refer to the Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek word that corresponds to the English word you are actually using. Point in fact:

Or as Jesus says, perfected, made whole.

May I ask – where (chapter & verse) did Jesus use the word ‘perfected’ in the sense of being ‘made whole’?

Mat 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Here the Greek word translated ‘perfect’ is teleios and means: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect: - complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12).

Joh 17:23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.

Here the Greek word translated ‘perfected’ is teleioo, and means: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect: - accomplish (2), accomplished (1), finish (1), fulfill (1), full number (1), made perfect (4), made...perfect (1), make...perfect (1), make perfect (1), perfect (2), perfected (7), reach...goal (1), spending the full number (1).

Perhaps a better question is – what do you mean by ‘made whole’ – there is a Greek word that is frequently translated ‘made whole’ in the KJV – that word is sozo, and means: to save: - bring...safely (1), cured (1), get (1), get well (2), made...well (6), made well (5), preserved (1), recover (1), restore (1), save (37), saved (50), saves (1), saving (1).

Another word sometimes translated ‘made whole’ in the KJV is iaomai, and means: to heal: - curing (1), heal (4), healed (16), healing (2), heals (1), perform healing (2).

To repeat the question: where (chapter & verse) did Jesus use the word ‘perfected’ in the sense of being ‘made whole’?

Salvation is not a noun but a verb

soteria; deliverance, salvation: - deliverance (2), preservation (1), salvation (42).
Feminine noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
Thayer Definition:
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
1a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
1b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
1b1) of Messianic salvation
2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine noun

Peace & Love

[barley]

Receiving a gift of salvation is one thing. Ok...how big a thing is that?
Ok...and now you have works to do. Ok...what percentage of success at this working does it take to achieve what degree of reward?
I know you fall short of what you have been ordained to do. So tell me...at what level are you currently at and what is the consequence for your shortcoming? And...for those who are below your level...what is their consequence?

You might want to familiarize yourself with II Corinthians 10:12. Then you might want to reconsider whether or not you wish to ask that question.

Barley

[justsumguy]

Receiving salvation as a gift is one thing. Do something with it is quite another. Receiving a gift take but a moment in time. Putting it to use is a lifelong action. Working out something you have inside is our responsibility upon receiving salvation. Ephesians 2:8-10. Salvation is a gift. Now having received salvation, we have works to do which God ordained that we should walk in.

barley

Receiving a gift of salvation is one thing. Ok...how big a thing is that?
Ok...and now you have works to do. Ok...what percentage of success at this working does it take to achieve what degree of reward?
I know you fall short of what you have been ordained to do. So tell me...at what level are you currently at and what is the consequence for your shortcoming? And...for those who are below your level...what is their consequence?

You might want to familiarize yourself with II Corinthians 10:12. Then you might want to reconsider whether or not you wish to ask that question.

Barley

Nice try. I'm the one making that point. Explain yourself. You referred to our responsiblity, what we have to do and what we should do and the receiving the gift of salvation is one thing. Go ahead and explain how our responsibility, that which we have to do and should do after our salvation has nothing to do with measure and explain how big a thing accepting salvation is.

You might want to familiarize yourself with my last response to Vivian before getting cute with me.

[Vivian]

Hi Viv, that was great. It had me laughing (in a good way as related to my abrasive post).Ok...we're on the same page with all of that.
But...I still sense an underlying if, and or but in your post

Hi justsumguy!

I don't remember abrasiveness, I only remember the good, so that us precede from and into the good...

Working out our salvation is not working on our salvation. As seems evident in the Christian world, people come to accept Christ as savior from many different angles. I accepted Christ when I was 7 years old.

You are using terms that have arisen and been given meaning in what I call the outer church. The Christian churches of the masses, akin to the outer courtyard of the temple. And since we are in unorthodox theology, I am going to question regarding these terms of orthodoxy.

You use the term 'accept Christ'. In my experience, the outer church uses this to mean mental accent. I mentally accent to this idea or that thought, about God, and about Christ. I think once in scripture, something is said about us doing accepting, but usually the word accept is used in referring to God accepting us or accepting what we do, in terms that we or our actions are worthy before God.

This link will take you to a listing of all the places where 'accept' occurs in the NT. So really when we say we accept Christ, are we not saying that we find Christ or God, or the ideas of Christ or God that have been presented to us acceptable, or worthy of our belief?

Certainly, a 7 year old child could make such a determination, but does this have anything to do with salvation?

We decide God is worthy of our consideration, so we are saved?

I think most of us here would agree that the scriptures can speak to us no matter where we are in life. To say that this passage means that would seem to be a little presumptuous of us. I would say it depends on where you are at.

Yes, indeed. So there is a place for our acceptance of Christ in our journey, where we decide he is worthy or the ideas of him are worthy of our time and thought and energy. But again, no where in scripture does it say that this is salvation. We can even expand this to say someone accepts Jesus as their personal savior. Someone decides that Jesus is worthy to be their savior. Does that make him their savior though?

For instance, I say that all those works we are admonished to do are actually results of knowing the truth. Depending on where a person first is when they first come to believe, the journey to knowing can greatly vary. Hopefully, we come to know more and more of the substance of things hoped for (there is coming to realize more of what it is we hope for) and the evidence of things not seen. Hopefully our faith becomes stronger. Our realization of faith isn't building anything that isn't there already. The faith is already there in it's entirety. Our efforts are involved in coming to know that which really is.

OK here is another term. Works. Paul uses works to refer to observing the 613 mitzvahs of Torah. Yet we find the outer church has expanded what works means, to include the commandments of Jesus.

We have all the apostles saying that if we belong to Christ, we will walk as he walked, we will do as he does, we will love as he loves. If we claim we belong to Christ yet do not do these things we are a liar. So now all the confusions get even more distorted.

The outer church speaks of accepting Christ as one's personal savior, deciding he is worthy to be one's savior, teaching that then one is saved. And then interpret the above to mean that if one is not doing as Christ commanded, then they might not have accepted him?

If we throw out the word accepted and replace it with Biblical terms, things become a bit more clear.

The Bible, instead of talking about accepting Christ, talks about receiving Christ, belonging to Christ. Receiving means we have something now that we did not have before, yes? And so if we receive Christ, we now have him, yes? He now indwells us, yes? And if he indwells us then will we not walk as he walks, do as he does, love as he loves?

We thus belonging to him?

This moves salvation out of the mind and mere mental acceptance, to an actual event. A change in us, before we were without Christ, and now we have him. Now, we belong to him.

In reality, humility isn't something one builds or achieves by sacrifice. Humility is a direct result of knowing that we are powerless. There is a measure of powerlessness in anyone at no matter what "level" they first enter the picture of recognizing their need for Christ, but the recognition of total powerlessness may occur at the beginning, 20 years later or not during this lifetime. When one truly realizes the fact that they have nothing to bring to the table, humility is an automatic, through and through result. I have to add, if one thinks that truly realizing the fact was due to their commitment to realize it, then they haven’t truly realized their powerlessness.

If we have received Christ, if we belong to him, we are not powerless. I can all things through Christ who strengthens me. Those who belong to me will do greater things than I have done.

Certainly this recognition of our powerlessness though plays an important part in our journey. If we have only accepted Christ, decided him worthy of our consideration, then eventually we will see our powerlessness, we will see what we are without him, and this will lead us to receiving him, to becoming his, and then we will no longer be powerless. If we are still walking in powerlessness, which again has a place in our journey, we are not yet walking in salvation.

Indeed, though recognition of our powerlessness on our own is essential in keeping us balanced, or integrated, walking for example simultaneously between humility in our selves alone, as souls or personalities, and pride in ourselves as temples for the Spirit of God, in whom all things are possible.

It’s this simple…in the end…we are headed for perfect eternity…the presence of God.
There is no commitment you or I can make that would secure our place in perfect eternity. Why, because we aren’t perfect. Not being perfect isn’t something we can dismiss with close enough. There is no close enough to perfect that can be a part of perfect. Realization of this fact results in total humility.
That example can be played out with every single thing we are admonished to do, including love. Our love cannot secure us a place in perfect. Our repentance cannot secure us a place in perfect. Our best efforts at any of these things would be in our desire to love with all our heart and our desire to be fully repentant. Even that isn’t going to work (notice the word “work”) because our desire to be perfect isn’t perfect either.

Here is another one of those words - perfect. As has been pointed out we in the outer church use this word incorrectly. It is thought that perfect means without error. Applying it biblically, we have this assumption floating around that perfect is obeying the 613 mitzvahs of Torah. As I believe Oliver pointed out, perfect means what is intended is accomplished, finished. (it also means healing or completing in the sense that I am using those terms). When Jesus tells us to be perfect, he is telling us to grow up spiritually, to mature, be complete. This completion or maturity is also seen as spiritual healing, or integration. What has been intended for our souls is accomplished. Perfection. My tradition also calls this healing or integration or realization of ourselves as eternal beings. The reason we do not realize ourselves as eternal beings is because we cannot 'see'. We do not have the spiritual eyes and ears necessary to see the kingdom or ourselves in the kingdom. To see or realize this is our perfecting or completion - which is working out our salvation. So yes, it is working on our salvation. It is growing up! Just as Jesus admonished us.

We only have one way to come to the perfect Father. It’s as simple as that. I have accepted the fact that Christ is my savior and the work is a result of that fact. As far as I know, if one doesn’t accept the fact, one’s work is working out the fact.

As Jesus said, to come to the perfect (whole, complete, fulfilled) Father, we too must be whole, complete, fulfilled. Paul even says the same when we see Christ, we will see him and know him because we will be like him. To see perfect, we must be perfect too.

Shalom!

Viv

[Vivian]

Hello Vivian,

Hi Oliver!

You suggest that you have an unusually deep understanding of Aramaic, Hebrew and now Greek, yet when you offer your ‘analysis’ you don’t refer to the Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek word that corresponds to the English word you are actually using.

I apologize. I point out the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic meanings, even quoting them, all the time in my posts. It is a wrong assumption to think that someone has read all my posts on Tweb, particularly if it is a new friend and a new thread.

Point in fact:



May I ask – where (chapter & verse) did Jesus use the word ‘perfected’ in the sense of being ‘made whole’?

Mat 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Here the Greek word translated ‘perfect’ is teleios and means: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect: - complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12).

Yes, thank you for pointing this out. I consider healing as part of our completion - healing in the sense of re-alignment, correction of our bodies. This is what is intended for us. Again not everyone knows that this is what I believe. I apologize.

Joh 17:23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.

Here the Greek word translated ‘perfected’ is teleioo, and means: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect: - accomplish (2), accomplished (1), finish (1), fulfill (1), full number (1), made perfect (4), made...perfect (1), make...perfect (1), make perfect (1), perfect (2), perfected (7), reach...goal (1), spending the full number (1).

Perhaps a better question is – what do you mean by ‘made whole’ – there is a Greek word that is frequently translated ‘made whole’ in the KJV – that word is sozo, and means: to save: - bring...safely (1), cured (1), get (1), get well (2), made...well (6), made well (5), preserved (1), recover (1), restore (1), save (37), saved (50), saves (1), saving (1).

Another word sometimes translated ‘made whole’ in the KJV is iaomai, and means: to heal: - curing (1), heal (4), healed (16), healing (2), heals (1), perform healing (2).

To repeat the question: where (chapter & verse) did Jesus use the word ‘perfected’ in the sense of being ‘made whole’?

As shared, I believe that completed, or brought to maturity, also means being made whole, or healed. Not healing in the sense that we think of healing. Something was whole, but then broke, and so now needs to be fixed. I use healing to mean completed, what was intended is accomplished, fulfilled. We can also call this the fulfilling of the law within us. Love is accomplished in us - we are healed, turned into beings that love fully.

soteria; deliverance, salvation: - deliverance (2), preservation (1), salvation (42).
Feminine noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
Thayer Definition:
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
1a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
1b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
1b1) of Messianic salvation
2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine noun

Peace & Love

Yes, one has to get into the usage of Greek and Hebrew, to see that they do not use nouns and verbs as we do, so linearly. For example, the usage of the word name in Hebrew. Name is a noun, but name refers to what a person does or is. So though name is a noun it is also a verb.

Shalom!

Viv

[barley]

Nice try. I'm the one making that point. Explain yourself. You referred to our responsiblity, what we have to do and what we should do and the receiving the gift of salvation is one thing. Go ahead and explain how our responsibility, that which we have to do and should do after our salvation has nothing to do with measure and explain how big a thing accepting salvation is.

You might want to familiarize yourself with my last response to Vivian before getting cute with me.

Just sum guy,

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the lord Jesus Christ,

I am sorry, I did not read your point at all in your post.

Your subtlety is way too subtle.

If you had a point to make, why did you not just make it?

If you think I am out of bounds with what I say and do, please show me scripture to get me back on track.

That would be far more profitable than playing footsie with me.

By the way, this thread is about the difference between getting saved and working out our salvation. That is exactly what I addressed with scripture.

Let me say it again, in a different way.

Salvations is not of works, but works is of salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 teaches us what our part in obtaining salvation is.

Having received salvation, we are expected to do something with it.

God has given us plenty of instructions on what to do with our salvation.

Read Romans through Thessalonians.

We are to renew our minds to the word of God. Romans 12:1-3 and following.

We are to speak in tongues, interpret tongues, give forth prophecy as instructed in I Corinthians 12:1-14:40

We are to carry out our ministry of reconciliation, II Corinthians 5:18, as ambassadors for Christ, II Corinthians 5:20

We are to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one another. Ephesians 4:32.

We are to comfort those who have lost loved ones with the truths in I Thessalonians 4:13-18.

So, what else would you like to know?

barley

Clear enough?

barley

So I read your post in reply to Vivian. You have read the scriptures. Except Romans 10:9-10. There is nothing there that say our salvation is dependent on accepting Christ as our savior.

Our salvation is dependent on confessing with our mouth that Jesus is lord (savior is not the same as lord) and believing in our hearts that God raised him from the dead. (there is nothing in this verse that says that we are to believe that Jesus Christ raised himself from the dead, nor is there any mention that we are to believe that God raised himself from the dead, nor mention of believing in a trinity nor is there any teaching here about believing that JC is the God.) we are to believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead and confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus.

Is that clear?

barley