Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox

[One Bad Pig]

Bright Week is the most amazing time of the year. Being at a monastery while in seminary, we are able to be there for Liturgy, Vespers and Matins every day. It is so beautiful. The Church in her wisdom keeps this joy for only a week, however, I think because we wouldn't be able to handle this type of joy all year long. I was able to serve 3 days of that week as well, which was like being on a roller coaster! The doors closing on Saturday night is so sad. Fortunately, the Apodosis for the feast, the day before Ascension, is served as if it were Bright Week again, so there's still some more to look forward to.

Lent is a big part of what makes Pascha so special. The event wouldn't stand out so much without the preparation beforehand - and IMO the more preparation you put into it, the more you'll get out of it.

It's awesome you were able to take part in so much of Bright Week. I'm in a small parish and my priest doesn't live very close to the church, so we weren't able to have any Bright Week services (there was a funeral on Bright Monday for a parishioner who reposed on Monday of Holy Week). I haven't been to a monastery yet (the closest is something like 3 hours away IIRC). I'll be visiting one next week in Israel, though.

[mitzi]

Bright Week is the most amazing time of the year. Being at a monastery while in seminary, we are able to be there for Liturgy, Vespers and Matins every day. It is so beautiful. The Church in her wisdom keeps this joy for only a week, however, I think because we wouldn't be able to handle this type of joy all year long. I was able to serve 3 days of that week as well, which was like being on a roller coaster! The doors closing on Saturday night is so sad. Fortunately, the Apodosis for the feast, the day before Ascension, is served as if it were Bright Week again, so there's still some more to look forward to.

Yes, I agree with you on everything you said in your post - it is the most amazing time of the year! I'm sooo glad that I had the chance this year to really take in the recent article (St. Thomas Sunday by Archbishop Dmitri of Dallas and the South) it really helped me to feel the joy of the gospel today. This day plays such important part in the Easter high holy season. So its not enough (just) to understand the scripture but for Christ's words to become alive in us - for others to see. Like the bishop wrote:

"Thomas is like so many of us in that he would require tangible, visible proof that Christ is really active in the lives of His people, caring for creation, and that He was what He claimed to be: "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father." (John 14:9) Some today desire generally that kind of evidence even for God’s existence, "irrefutable" evidence making it impossible for man not to believe. That type of unquestionable, undeniable proof, we can say, will be put forth only at the end of this age, when "the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him..." (Matthew 25:31) At that time it will indeed be quite impossible for anyone (although some may try in vain) to deny "the King of kings and the Lord of lords." (Deuteronomy 10:17; Revelation 19:16)

God’s most important gift to man, that which identifies him as a creature made in the image of God, is free will. The Lord honors this gift. He loves man and would have man love Him freely in return. God, therefore, will not force man to accept Him, but would have him approach his Creator in faith and trust. We would do well to remember the example of St. John the Baptist. He bore witness to his Lord saying, "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29) Yet after being arrested, in a moment of hesitation or doubt, the Forerunner sent his disciples to Christ asking, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" (Matthew 11:3) At first glance this question seems strange, indeed contradictory, for "the greatest born of women" to be asking.It is thus important to note that Jesus does not seek to answer it in some "definitive" way, irrefutable in John’s mind. Rather He responds in terms of an invitation, still beckoning His servant to place his trust freely in Him: "Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." (Matthew 11:4-6)"

[mitzi]

Bright Week is the most amazing time of the year. Being at a monastery while in seminary, we are able to be there for Liturgy, Vespers and Matins every day. It is so beautiful. The Church in her wisdom keeps this joy for only a week, however, I think because we wouldn't be able to handle this type of joy all year long. I was able to serve 3 days of that week as well, which was like being on a roller coaster! The doors closing on Saturday night is so sad. Fortunately, the Apodosis for the feast, the day before Ascension, is served as if it were Bright Week again, so there's still some more to look forward to.

I wanted to (also) express that the article was so connected with Pope Benedict book:
Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI - Jesus of Nazareth:

Listing a couple paragraphs:

"The goal is truly to leave behind the sinful life one has led until now and to start out on the path to a new, changed life. - the actual ritual of Baptism symbolizes this. On one hand, immersion into the waters is a symbol of death, which recalls the death symbolism of the annihilating, destructive power of the ocean flood." (primeval flood that might submerge all life) The river (Jordan) could also assume this symbolic value for those who were immersed in it. but the flowing waters of the river are above all a symbol of life."

Immersion in the water is about purification, about liberation from the filth of the past that burdens and distorts life. if is about beginning again, and that means it is about death and resurrection, about starting life over again anew. So we could say that it is about rebirth."

Now here's where I thought the article and Pope Benedict's book came together really nicely:

The dispute between the Baptist and Jesus that Matthew recounts for us was also an expression of the early Christians' own question to Jesus: "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" (MT3:14) Matthew goes on to report for us that "Jesus answered him "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to filfull all righteousness" then he consented" (MT3:15)


--- the act of descending into the waters of this Baptism implies a confession of guilt and a plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning.----

"The significance of this event could not fully emerge until it was seen in light of the Cross and Resurrection. Descending into the water, the candidate for Baptism confess their sin and seek to be rid of their burden of guilt. What did Jesus do in this same situation? Luke, who throughout his Gospel is keenly attentive to Jesus' prayer, and portrays him again and again at prayer - in conversation with the Father -- tells us that Jesus was praying while he received Baptism (cf. Lk 3:21). Looking at the events in light of the Cross and Resurrection, the Christian people realized what happened; Jesus loaded the burden of all mankind's guilt upon his shoulders; he bore it down into the depths of the Jordon. He inaugurated his public activity by stepping into the place of sinners. His inaugural gesture is an anticipation of the Cross."

************

Today was meant to be celebrated with Joy for God's Mercy and Grace that was given to us, "What a Great Joy!" No wonder - it was called "Bright Week"

[George Blaisdell]

Pope Benedict's book: Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI - Jesus of Nazareth:

"The goal is truly to leave behind the sinful life one has led until now and to start out on the path to a new, changed life. - the actual ritual of Baptism symbolizes this. On one hand, [B]immersion into the waters is a symbol of death, which recalls the death symbolism of the annihilating, destructive power of the ocean flood." (primeval flood that might submerge all life) The river (Jordan) could also assume this symbolic value for those who were immersed in it. but the flowing waters of the river are above all a symbol of life."

Immersion in the water is about purification, about liberation from the filth of the past that burdens and distorts life. if is about beginning again, and that means it is about death and resurrection, about starting life over again anew. So we could say that it is about rebirth."

SYMBOLS ABOUT...

This would be denied by the Orthodox...

Baptism is the ACTUAL entry into the Death and Resurrection of Christ, for by it we are ACTUALLY entered into His Holy Body...

iow, We affirm the ONTOLOGICAL nature of the Holy Mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation INTO the very Body of Christ... We do NOT regard them as symbolic events that are about death, life and rebirth... They ARE death, life and rebirth...

Does Pope Benedict ALSO affirm the ontological nature of these events?

--- the act of descending into the waters of this Baptism implies a confession of guilt and a plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning.----

"The significance of this event could not fully emerge until it was seen in light of the Cross and Resurrection. Descending into the water, the candidate for Baptism confess their sin and seek to be rid of their burden of guilt.

This as well is much different in Orthodoxy... Yes, we confess our sins, and receive remission from them, prior to baptism... We never seek to be rid of their burden of guilt... We instead seek to be ridded of the POWER of sin over us, and this is in FACT what we receive... Beginning with the prayers of exorcism of the person, and then his or her renunciation of Satan, and blowing and spitting on him, facing west, and then the sanctification of the waters of Baptism, and then the immersion into their cleansing utterly of the person baptized therein... That person emerges completely pure, utterly without sin, andn holy... And it is this sinless new creation that is then sanctified by the Seal of the Holy Spirit, Chrismation, the Holy Annointing that follows Baptism... We are never again so Sanctified as we ARE the day we are baptized... From there on, our sins detract from what we had that glorious day...

It's the REAL thing, you see... It is not ABOUT the real thing, nor does it SYMBOLIZE the real thing... It is ACTUALLY and ONTOLOGICALLY the real thing...

Thank-you, Mitzi, for your wonderful affirmation of the Catholic Church's understanding of this great and Holy Week following the Resurrection of our Lord and Savior... A thousand years of separation can never be without some differences emerging... I had always thought that Rome did indeed affirm the Ontology of the meaning of Baptism, and not just its symbolic affirmation being about that reality...

I would be surprised if this were Pope Benedict's last words on the matter... But I was struck by his description as you reported it... I mean, it sounds so.... Well... So Protestant...

Forgive me...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

SYMBOLS ABOUT...

This would be denied by the Orthodox...

Baptism is the ACTUAL entry into the Death and Resurrection of Christ, for by it we are ACTUALLY entered into His Holy Body...

iow, We affirm the ONTOLOGICAL nature of the Holy Mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation INTO the very Body of Christ... We do NOT regard them as symbolic events that are about death, life and rebirth... They ARE death, life and rebirth...

Does Pope Benedict ALSO affirm the ontological nature of these events?

--- the act of descending into the waters of this Baptism implies a confession of guilt and a plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning.----



This as well is much different in Orthodoxy... Yes, we confess our sins, and receive remission from them, prior to baptism... We never seek to be rid of their burden of guilt... We instead seek to be ridded of the POWER of sin over us, and this is in FACT what we receive... Beginning with the prayers of exorcism of the person, and then his or her renunciation of Satan, and blowing and spitting on him, facing west, and then the sanctification of the waters of Baptism, and then the immersion into their cleansing utterly of the person baptized therein... That person emerges completely pure, utterly without sin, andn holy... And it is this sinless new creation that is then sanctified by the Seal of the Holy Spirit, Chrismation, the Holy Annointing that follows Baptism... We are never again so Sanctified as we ARE the day we are baptized... From there on, our sins detract from what we had that glorious day...

It's the REAL thing, you see... It is not ABOUT the real thing, nor does it SYMBOLIZE the real thing... It is ACTUALLY and ONTOLOGICALLY the real thing...

Thank-you, Mitzi, for your wonderful affirmation of the Catholic Church's understanding of this great and Holy Week following the Resurrection of our Lord and Savior... A thousand years of separation can never be without some differences emerging... I had always thought that Rome did indeed affirm the Ontology of the meaning of Baptism, and not just its symbolic affirmation being about that reality...

I would be surprised if this were Pope Benedict's last words on the matter... But I was struck by his description as you reported it... I mean, it sounds so.... Well... So Protestant...

Forgive me...

Arsenios

Hi Arsenios;

No..No..forgive me for "not" explaining fully this part of the book. I had to look it up on line and found the article that I would like for you to read:

"We can imagine the extraordinary impression that the figure and message of John the Baptist must have produced in the highly charged atmosphere of Jerusalem at that particular moment of history. At last there was a prophet again, and his life marked him out as such. God’s hand was at last plainly acting in history again. John baptizes with water, but one even greater, who will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire, is already at the door. Given all this, there is absolutely no reason to suppose that Mark is exaggerating when he reports that “there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins” (Mk 1:5). John’s baptism includes the confession of sins. The Judaism of the day was familiar both with more generally formulaic confessions of sin and with a highly personalized confessional practice in which an enumeration of individual sinful deeds was expected (Gnilka, Matthäusevangelium I, p. 68). The goal is truly to leave behind the sinful life one has led until now and to start out on the path to a new, changed life.

The actual ritual of Baptism symbolizes this. On one hand, immersion into the waters is a symbol of death, which recalls the death symbolism of the annihilating, destructive power of the ocean flood. The ancient mind perceived the ocean as a permanent threat to the cosmos, to the earth; it was the primeval flood that might submerge all life. The river (Jordan) could also assume this symbolic value for those who were immersed in it. But the flowing waters of the river are above all a symbol of life. The great rivers—the Nile, the Euphrates, the Tigris—are the great givers of life. The Jordan, too, is—even today—a source of life for the surrounding region. Immersion in the water is about purification, about liberation from the filth of the past that burdens and distorts life—it is about beginning again, and that means it is about death and resurrection, about starting life over again anew. So we could say that it is about rebirth. All of this will have to wait for Christian baptismal theology to be worked out explicitly, but the act of descending into the Jordan and coming up again out of the waters already implicitly contains this later development."

[mitzi]

SYMBOLS ABOUT...

This would be denied by the Orthodox...

Baptism is the ACTUAL entry into the Death and Resurrection of Christ, for by it we are ACTUALLY entered into His Holy Body...

iow, We affirm the ONTOLOGICAL nature of the Holy Mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation INTO the very Body of Christ... We do NOT regard them as symbolic events that are about death, life and rebirth... They ARE death, life and rebirth...

Does Pope Benedict ALSO affirm the ontological nature of these events?

--- the act of descending into the waters of this Baptism implies a confession of guilt and a plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning.----



This as well is much different in Orthodoxy... Yes, we confess our sins, and receive remission from them, prior to baptism... We never seek to be rid of their burden of guilt... We instead seek to be ridded of the POWER of sin over us, and this is in FACT what we receive... Beginning with the prayers of exorcism of the person, and then his or her renunciation of Satan, and blowing and spitting on him, facing west, and then the sanctification of the waters of Baptism, and then the immersion into their cleansing utterly of the person baptized therein... That person emerges completely pure, utterly without sin, andn holy... And it is this sinless new creation that is then sanctified by the Seal of the Holy Spirit, Chrismation, the Holy Annointing that follows Baptism... We are never again so Sanctified as we ARE the day we are baptized... From there on, our sins detract from what we had that glorious day...

It's the REAL thing, you see... It is not ABOUT the real thing, nor does it SYMBOLIZE the real thing... It is ACTUALLY and ONTOLOGICALLY the real thing...

Thank-you, Mitzi, for your wonderful affirmation of the Catholic Church's understanding of this great and Holy Week following the Resurrection of our Lord and Savior... A thousand years of separation can never be without some differences emerging... I had always thought that Rome did indeed affirm the Ontology of the meaning of Baptism, and not just its symbolic affirmation being about that reality...

I would be surprised if this were Pope Benedict's last words on the matter... But I was struck by his description as you reported it... I mean, it sounds so.... Well... So Protestant...

Forgive me...

Arsenios

Continue:

"The whole of Judea and Jerusalem were making the pilgrimage to be baptized, as we just heard. But now something new happens: “In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan” (Mk 1:9). So far, nothing has been said about pilgrims from Galilee; the action seemed limited to the region of Judea. But the real novelty here is not the fact that Jesus comes from another geographical area, from a distant country, as it were. The real novelty is the fact that he—Jesus—wants to be baptized, that he blends into the gray mass of sinners waiting on the banks of the Jordan. We have just heard that the confession of sins is a component of Baptism. Baptism itself was a confession of sins and the attempt to put off an old, failed life and to receive a new one. Is that something Jesus could do? How could he confess sins? How could he separate himself from his previous life in order to start a new one? This is a question that Christians could not avoid asking. The dispute between the Baptist and Jesus that Matthew recounts for us was also an expression of the early Christians’ own question to Jesus: “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” (Mt 3:14). Matthew goes on to report for us that “Jesus answered him, ‘Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.’ Then he consented.” (Mt 3:15).

It is not easy to decode the sense of this enigmatic-sounding answer. At any rate, the Greek word for “now”—árti—implies a certain reservation: This is a specific, temporary situation that calls for a specific way of acting. The key to interpreting Jesus’ answer is how we understand the word righteousness: The whole of righteousness must be fulfilled. In Jesus’ world, righteousness is man’s answer to the Torah, acceptance of the whole of God’s will, the bearing of the “yoke of God’s kingdom,” as one formulation had it. There is no provision for John’s baptism in the Torah, but this reply of Jesus is his way of acknowledging it as an expression of an unrestricted Yes to God’s will, as an obedient acceptance of his yoke."

LINK

[mitzi]

SYMBOLS ABOUT...

This would be denied by the Orthodox...

Baptism is the ACTUAL entry into the Death and Resurrection of Christ, for by it we are ACTUALLY entered into His Holy Body...

iow, We affirm the ONTOLOGICAL nature of the Holy Mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation INTO the very Body of Christ... We do NOT regard them as symbolic events that are about death, life and rebirth... They ARE death, life and rebirth...

Does Pope Benedict ALSO affirm the ontological nature of these events?

--- the act of descending into the waters of this Baptism implies a confession of guilt and a plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning.----



This as well is much different in Orthodoxy... Yes, we confess our sins, and receive remission from them, prior to baptism... We never seek to be rid of their burden of guilt... We instead seek to be ridded of the POWER of sin over us, and this is in FACT what we receive... Beginning with the prayers of exorcism of the person, and then his or her renunciation of Satan, and blowing and spitting on him, facing west, and then the sanctification of the waters of Baptism, and then the immersion into their cleansing utterly of the person baptized therein... That person emerges completely pure, utterly without sin, andn holy... And it is this sinless new creation that is then sanctified by the Seal of the Holy Spirit, Chrismation, the Holy Annointing that follows Baptism... We are never again so Sanctified as we ARE the day we are baptized... From there on, our sins detract from what we had that glorious day...

It's the REAL thing, you see... It is not ABOUT the real thing, nor does it SYMBOLIZE the real thing... It is ACTUALLY and ONTOLOGICALLY the real thing...

Thank-you, Mitzi, for your wonderful affirmation of the Catholic Church's understanding of this great and Holy Week following the Resurrection of our Lord and Savior... A thousand years of separation can never be without some differences emerging... I had always thought that Rome did indeed affirm the Ontology of the meaning of Baptism, and not just its symbolic affirmation being about that reality...

I would be surprised if this were Pope Benedict's last words on the matter... But I was struck by his description as you reported it... I mean, it sounds so.... Well... So Protestant...

Forgive me...

Arsenios

"The act of descending into the waters of this Baptism implies a confession of guilt and a plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning. In a world marked by sin, then, this Yes to the entire will of God also expresses solidarity with men, who have incurred guilt but yearn for righteousness. The significance of this event could not fully emerge until it was seen in light of the Cross and Resurrection. Descending into the water, the candidates for Baptism confess their sin and seek to be rid of their burden of guilt. What did Jesus do in this same situation? Luke, who throughout his Gospel is keenly attentive to Jesus’ prayer, and portrays him again and again at prayer—in conversation with the Father—tells us that Jesus was praying while he received Baptism (cf. Lk 3:21). Looking at the events in light of the Cross and Resurrection, the Christian people realized what happened: Jesus loaded the burden of all mankind’s guilt upon his shoulders; he bore it down into the depths of the Jordan. He inaugurated his public activity by stepping into the place of sinners. His inaugural gesture is an anticipation of the Cross. He is, as it were, the true Jonah who said to the crew of the ship, “Take me and throw me into the sea” (Jon 1:12). The whole significance of Jesus’ Baptism, the fact that he bears “all righteousness,” first comes to light on the Cross: The Baptism is an acceptance of death for the sins of humanity, and the voice that calls out “This is my beloved Son” over the baptismal waters is an anticipatory reference to the Resurrection. This also explains why, in his own discourses, Jesus uses the word baptism to refer to his death (cf. Mk 10:38; Lk 12:50)."

Same Link

[mitzi]

SYMBOLS ABOUT...

This would be denied by the Orthodox...

Baptism is the ACTUAL entry into the Death and Resurrection of Christ, for by it we are ACTUALLY entered into His Holy Body...

iow, We affirm the ONTOLOGICAL nature of the Holy Mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation INTO the very Body of Christ... We do NOT regard them as symbolic events that are about death, life and rebirth... They ARE death, life and rebirth...

Does Pope Benedict ALSO affirm the ontological nature of these events?

--- the act of descending into the waters of this Baptism implies a confession of guilt and a plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning.----



This as well is much different in Orthodoxy... Yes, we confess our sins, and receive remission from them, prior to baptism... We never seek to be rid of their burden of guilt... We instead seek to be ridded of the POWER of sin over us, and this is in FACT what we receive... Beginning with the prayers of exorcism of the person, and then his or her renunciation of Satan, and blowing and spitting on him, facing west, and then the sanctification of the waters of Baptism, and then the immersion into their cleansing utterly of the person baptized therein... That person emerges completely pure, utterly without sin, andn holy... And it is this sinless new creation that is then sanctified by the Seal of the Holy Spirit, Chrismation, the Holy Annointing that follows Baptism... We are never again so Sanctified as we ARE the day we are baptized... From there on, our sins detract from what we had that glorious day...

It's the REAL thing, you see... It is not ABOUT the real thing, nor does it SYMBOLIZE the real thing... It is ACTUALLY and ONTOLOGICALLY the real thing...

Thank-you, Mitzi, for your wonderful affirmation of the Catholic Church's understanding of this great and Holy Week following the Resurrection of our Lord and Savior... A thousand years of separation can never be without some differences emerging... I had always thought that Rome did indeed affirm the Ontology of the meaning of Baptism, and not just its symbolic affirmation being about that reality...

I would be surprised if this were Pope Benedict's last words on the matter... But I was struck by his description as you reported it... I mean, it sounds so.... Well... So Protestant...

Forgive me...

Arsenios

"A detailed look at Pope Benedict’s interpretation of the Gospel accounts of the baptism of Jesus illustrates the strengths of his hermeneutic, and in particular shows how he draws on the Christian tradition. He begins by discussing the different ways the Synoptic evangelists begin their Gospels and introduce Jesus’ baptism, each yielding different insights into Jesus and his mission. He then elaborates on the historical background of the event, both political (the Roman empire) and religious (the various sects in Judaism including the community of Qumran). Then Benedict introduces John the Baptist, referring to his possible association with Qumran and to the Old Testament texts the Gospels employ to describe his mission. He provides some historical background to the practice of confession of sins in Judaism of that time. All of this is standard critical exegesis. Edging in a theological direction, the Pope then reflects on the symbolism of John’s baptism as the beginning of a new life. Immersion into the waters symbolizes death. Yet the flowing river can symbolize life, since rivers like the Jordan sustain life in arid regions. Immersion is also about cleansing from the filth of the past, about purification and liberation, about death and resurrection, about rebirth. Aware, perhaps, that he has claimed quite a bit for the significance of John’s baptism, he acknowledges, “All of this will have to wait for Christian baptismal theology to be worked out explicitly, but the act of descending into the Jordan and coming up again…already implicitly contains this later development” (16).

Benedict then lingers briefly over the question of why Jesus should be baptized, including the exchange between John and Jesus in Matthew 3:14-15: “John would have prevented him, saying, ‘I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?’ But Jesus answered him, ‘Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.’” He concludes that Jesus’ baptism is his “unrestricted Yes to God’s will” and an expression of solidarity with human beings “who have incurred guilt but yearn for righteousness” (17). Acknowledging that “the significance of this event could not fully emerge until it was seen in the light of the Cross and Resurrection” (17), Pope Benedict interprets John’s baptism of Jesus in light of Christian baptism. Just as baptismal candidates confess their sin and seek to unburden themselves of guilt, so Jesus, in prayer at his baptism, “loaded the burden of all mankind’s guilt upon his shoulders…[and] bore it down into the depths of the Jordan” (18), anticipating the cross. The Father’s affirmation, “This is my beloved Son” anticipates the Resurrection. Benedict offers Jesus’ use of the term “baptism” in reference to his death in Mark 10:38 and Luke 12:50 (“I have a baptism to be baptized with…”) in support of this interpretation. Then, in circular fashion, Benedict affirms, “Only from this starting point can we understand Christian baptism” (18). The anticipations in Jesus’ baptism have become reality through the Paschal Mystery. To be baptized “is to go where [Jesus] identifies with us and to receive there our identification with him…. Paul develops this inner connection in his theology of baptism (cf. Rom. 6), though without explicitly mentioning Jesus’ baptism in the Jordan” (18-19)."

LINK

[mitzi]

SYMBOLS ABOUT...

This would be denied by the Orthodox...

Baptism is the ACTUAL entry into the Death and Resurrection of Christ, for by it we are ACTUALLY entered into His Holy Body...

iow, We affirm the ONTOLOGICAL nature of the Holy Mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation INTO the very Body of Christ... We do NOT regard them as symbolic events that are about death, life and rebirth... They ARE death, life and rebirth...

Does Pope Benedict ALSO affirm the ontological nature of these events?

--- the act of descending into the waters of this Baptism implies a confession of guilt and a plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning.----



This as well is much different in Orthodoxy... Yes, we confess our sins, and receive remission from them, prior to baptism... We never seek to be rid of their burden of guilt... We instead seek to be ridded of the POWER of sin over us, and this is in FACT what we receive... Beginning with the prayers of exorcism of the person, and then his or her renunciation of Satan, and blowing and spitting on him, facing west, and then the sanctification of the waters of Baptism, and then the immersion into their cleansing utterly of the person baptized therein... That person emerges completely pure, utterly without sin, andn holy... And it is this sinless new creation that is then sanctified by the Seal of the Holy Spirit, Chrismation, the Holy Annointing that follows Baptism... We are never again so Sanctified as we ARE the day we are baptized... From there on, our sins detract from what we had that glorious day...

It's the REAL thing, you see... It is not ABOUT the real thing, nor does it SYMBOLIZE the real thing... It is ACTUALLY and ONTOLOGICALLY the real thing...

Thank-you, Mitzi, for your wonderful affirmation of the Catholic Church's understanding of this great and Holy Week following the Resurrection of our Lord and Savior... A thousand years of separation can never be without some differences emerging... I had always thought that Rome did indeed affirm the Ontology of the meaning of Baptism, and not just its symbolic affirmation being about that reality...

I would be surprised if this were Pope Benedict's last words on the matter... But I was struck by his description as you reported it... I mean, it sounds so.... Well... So Protestant...

Forgive me...

Arsenios

Same Link:

"The seminar participants had their share of criticisms of the Benedict’s book: it does not pay sufficient attention to the difference between Jesus’ historical ministry and the disciples’ post-resurrection understanding; it does not say enough about Jesus’ eschatological understanding; the publisher should have provided an index. Nevertheless, there was general appreciation of the theological and spiritual depth of the Pope’s biblical interpretation. Many found it too rich to simply read through like any other book. Dennis Hamm of Creighton University was typical, deciding to read a portion each day as spiritual reading.

In Jesus of Nazareth Pope Benedict XVI has shown how a man of faith and reason, a Christian scholar, can find the face of Jesus in the canonical Gospels, and how others can do the same. Biblical scholars have been given a fine example of a pastoral hermeneutic capable of building up the life of the Church that is grounded in faith, reads Scripture canonically and theologically, and that draws both on the resources of critical exegesis and of the Christian tradition."

[George Blaisdell]

Thanks, Mitzi -

The differences between the Latin Confession and that of the Orthodox could not be clearer...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

Thanks, Mitzi -

The differences between the Latin Confession and that of the Orthodox could not be clearer...

Arsenios

The differences between? Arsenios - how many ways are there to God? There's only one way that I know of - through our Lord Jesus.

St. Ignatius' Call to Unity

Ephesians writes “Pray, then, come and join this choir, every one of you; let there be a while symphony of minds in concert; take the tone all together from God, and sing aloud to the Father with one voice through Jesus Christ, so that He may hear you and know by your good works that you are indeed members of His Son’s Body. A completely united front will help to keep you in constant communion with God.”

Is this any different then what this article or the article that I original posted wanted?

Pope: Faith in God's oneness, church unity essential to Christianity

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

"Faith in the oneness of God and a commitment to the unity of the church are essential components of the Christian life, Pope Benedict XVI said. "Communion within the church and mission -- the proclamation of the Gospel" -- go hand in hand, the pope said March 14 at his weekly general audience. Addressing about 25,000 people gathered in St. Peter's Square under sunny spring skies, Pope Benedict continued his new series of audience talks about early church leaders, focusing on St. Ignatius of Antioch, who served as bishop from 70 to 107. Pope Benedict said St. Ignatius "is called the 'doctor of unity,'" because his primary concerns were to preach the oneness of the triune God, the unity of Jesus' humanity and divinity, and the importance of unity within the Christian community. In writing about the church, Pope Benedict said, St. Ignatius emphasized both its hierarchical structure and the fact that all the faithful are bound to one another through their baptism in Christ."

The biggest problem that we face right now as Christians is the fact that in Europe especially in Jerusalem and in the Middle Eastern countries or Mediterranean countries is that we're losing strength in our communities. It is very sad that our differences will start to show others that unity isn't possible - when it is.

[mitzi]

Thanks, Mitzi -

The differences between the Latin Confession and that of the Orthodox could not be clearer...

Arsenios

continue:

MEETING WITH THE BISHOPS OF PORTUGAL
ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI

Conference Hall of the "Casa Nossa Senhora do Carmo" - Fátima
Thursday, 13 May 2010

"In truth, the times in which we live demand a new missionary vigour on the part of Christians, who are called to form a mature laity, identified with the Church and sensitive to the complex transformations taking place in our world. Authentic witnesses to Jesus Christ are needed, above all in those human situations where the silence of the faith is most widely and deeply felt: among politicians, intellectuals, communications professionals who profess and who promote a monocultural ideal, with disdain for the religious and contemplative dimension of life. In such circles are found some believers who are ashamed of their beliefs and who even give a helping hand to this type of secularism, which builds barriers before Christian inspiration. And yet, dear brothers, may all those who defend the faith in these situations, with courage, with a vigorous Catholic outlook and in fidelity to the magisterium, continue to receive your help and your insightful encouragement in order to live out, as faithful lay men and women, their Christian freedom.

You maintain a strong prophetic dimension, without allowing yourselves to be silenced, in the present social context, for “the word of God is not fettered” (2 Tim 2:9). People cry out for the Good News of Jesus Christ, which gives meaning to their lives and protects their dignity. In your role as first evangelizers, it will be useful for you to know and to understand the diverse social and cultural factors, to evaluate their spiritual deficiencies and to utilize effectively your pastoral resources; what is decisive, however, is the ability to inculcate in all those engaged in the work of evangelization a true desire for holiness, in the awareness that the results derive above all from our union with Christ and the working of the Holy Spirit."

[mitzi]

Thanks, Mitzi -

The differences between the Latin Confession and that of the Orthodox could not be clearer...

Arsenios

I applauded the Orthodox priest who wrote this article - because I could/and still do identify with this topic, believers and skeptics. The octave of Easter/Divine Mercy Sunday - the Sunday of Thomas was truly a blessing for me - scriptural wise and just being close to the meaning of that week and day. I had connected so much this year - which helped me to become closer to my faith in Jesus - I felt opened to God's mercy and compassion. I felt like a sponge to water - there is either a Psalms or passage that describes the desert parchment but when one hears the "word of God" its like water being brought forth where there was only dryness. Well, anyway....here's the part that I connect to in the article, I thank this Orthodox priest for writing such as beautiful sermon!

"Now "Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came," and when the others told Him, "we have seen the Lord." He, therefore, said, "Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20: 24-25) Thomas is like so many of us in that he would require tangible, visible proof that Christ is really active in the lives of His people, caring for creation, and that He was what He claimed to be: "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father." (John 14:9) Some today desire generally that kind of evidence even for God’s existence, "irrefutable" evidence making it impossible for man not to believe. That type of unquestionable, undeniable proof, we can say, will be put forth only at the end of this age, when "the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him..." (Matthew 25:31) At that time it will indeed be quite impossible for anyone (although some may try in vain) to deny "the King of kings and the Lord of lords." (Deuteronomy 10:17; Revelation 19:16)

God’s most important gift to man, that which identifies him as a creature made in the image of God, is free will. The Lord honors this gift. He loves man and would have man love Him freely in return. God, therefore, will not force man to accept Him, but would have him approach his Creator in faith and trust. We would do well to remember the example of St. John the Baptist. He bore witness to his Lord saying, "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29) Yet after being arrested, in a moment of hesitation or doubt, the Forerunner sent his disciples to Christ asking, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" (Matthew 11:3) At first glance this question seems strange, indeed contradictory, for "the greatest born of women" to be asking.It is thus important to note that Jesus does not seek to answer it in some "definitive" way, irrefutable in John’s mind. Rather He responds in terms of an invitation, still beckoning His servant to place his trust freely in Him: "Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." (Matthew 11:4-6)"

[George Blaisdell]

I applauded the Orthodox priest who wrote this article - because I could/and still do identify with this topic, believers and skeptics. The octave of Easter/Divine Mercy Sunday - the Sunday of Thomas was truly a blessing for me - scriptural wise and just being close to the meaning of that week and day. I had connected so much this year - which helped me to become closer to my faith in Jesus - I felt opened to God's mercy and compassion. I felt like a sponge to water - there is either a Psalms or passage that describes the desert parchment but when one hears the "word of God" its like water being brought forth where there was only dryness. Well, anyway....here's the part that I connect to in the article, I thank this Orthodox priest for writing such as beautiful sermon!

"Now "Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came," and when the others told Him, "we have seen the Lord." He, therefore, said, "Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20: 24-25) Thomas is like so many of us in that he would require tangible, visible proof that Christ is really active in the lives of His people, caring for creation, and that He was what He claimed to be: "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father." (John 14:9) Some today desire generally that kind of evidence even for God’s existence, "irrefutable" evidence making it impossible for man not to believe. That type of unquestionable, undeniable proof, we can say, will be put forth only at the end of this age, when "the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him..." (Matthew 25:31) At that time it will indeed be quite impossible for anyone (although some may try in vain) to deny "the King of kings and the Lord of lords." (Deuteronomy 10:17; Revelation 19:16)

God’s most important gift to man, that which identifies him as a creature made in the image of God, is free will. The Lord honors this gift. He loves man and would have man love Him freely in return. God, therefore, will not force man to accept Him, but would have him approach his Creator in faith and trust. We would do well to remember the example of St. John the Baptist. He bore witness to his Lord saying, "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29) Yet after being arrested, in a moment of hesitation or doubt, the Forerunner sent his disciples to Christ asking, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" (Matthew 11:3) At first glance this question seems strange, indeed contradictory, for "the greatest born of women" to be asking.It is thus important to note that Jesus does not seek to answer it in some "definitive" way, irrefutable in John’s mind. Rather He responds in terms of an invitation, still beckoning His servant to place his trust freely in Him: "Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." (Matthew 11:4-6)"

I am glad you found consolation in the homilitic words of this Orthodox Priest giving what is a Traditional and Patristic understanding of the meaning of this annual feast day...

As a merely personal note, I was one of those who required "that kind of evidence even for God’s existence, "irrefutable" evidence making it impossible for man not to believe." So that I identify fully with Thomas... And in that identity, I would quibble with the Priest, in that I did not have to wait until the end of the Age to receive it... Like Thomas, who thrust his hand into the living and Life-giving wounds of the Flesh of our Lord, I am no longer able to not believe... I am to this day far too faithless... And yet in the Church I live by faith, for there was never, and never can be, until the end of the Age, the PHYSICAL proof... The real proof in this Age is the visitation of God in Person in the heart, as God... With that, even hardened atheists who have never read the Bible, like I was, are transformed...

I leave the question of Rome's rehabilitation to the Bishops and Patriarchs and God...
Christ is the Head of His Own Body on earth, the Church,
and not the Deacons, nor the Priests, nor the Bishops, nor the Patriarchs,
and certainly not the Pope...

The wreckage you see in the Middle East in her Christians is the result of Islamic persecutions...
The far worse wreckage you see in the west is the result of advanced spiritual cancer...

May you find great consolation, my Brother...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

I am glad you found consolation in the homilitic words of this Orthodox Priest giving what is a Traditional and Patristic understanding of the meaning of this annual feast day...

As a merely personal note, I was one of those who required "that kind of evidence even for God’s existence, "irrefutable" evidence making it impossible for man not to believe." So that I identify fully with Thomas... And in that identity, I would quibble with the Priest, in that I did not have to wait until the end of the Age to receive it... Like Thomas, who thrust his hand into the living and Life-giving wounds of the Flesh of our Lord, I am no longer able to not believe... I am to this day far too faithless... And yet in the Church I live by faith, for there was never, and never can be, until the end of the Age, the PHYSICAL proof... The real proof in this Age is the visitation of God in Person in the heart, as God... With that, even hardened atheists who have never read the Bible, like I was, are transformed...

I leave the question of Rome's rehabilitation to the Bishops and Patriarchs and God...
Christ is the Head of His Own Body on earth, the Church,
and not the Deacons, nor the Priests, nor the Bishops, nor the Patriarchs,
and certainly not the Pope...

The wreckage you see in the Middle East in her Christians is the result of Islamic persecutions...
The far worse wreckage you see in the west is the result of advanced spiritual cancer...

May you find great consolation, my Brother...

Arsenios

Hi Arsenios;

There are far too many who look for the differences and not for what we have in common. As the article states: "We can express our differences and at the same time share a genuine oneness. Christ is the source of our unity. We discover unity within the context of our Eucharistic Assembly. “Make certain, therefore,” writes St. Ignatius to the Philadelphians, “that you observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one Cup of Union with His blood. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God.” St. Ignatius' Call to Unity

In all what I found was the fact that God is all forgiving, as "the will of a merciful God that all should be saved', also that He has unlimited compassion to all who ask as well as His own son also pleads in our own behalf. The understanding of the cross, is when God's own son who was being crucified on the cross had asked his Father to forgive us! "Jesus said "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." And yet, still after all that had been done to Jesus - these men could still do more harm by casting lots for his robe. I find the sentiments rather hard core. However, isn't that "hard core" behavior seen in our own society today? Like who's going to stop me attitude? or so what? Yet - I know that the ice melts and the sun comes out from a thunderstorm - as forgiveness became Jesus actual "crown" and "mercy" was the scepter as he held onto those even when he breathed his last breath. We understand the cross and its salvation, 1 Corinthians 2, through the teachings of God's Spirit - "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us."

Paul taught about the Spirit of God - giving the Corinthians the thought to what God's ability was as to search through the souls of men - not just Christians but for also the Arabs (of yesterday and today) as well as to the Jews who knew of God's Spirit (through the prophets and through their instructions):

"Spirit" translates the Hebrew word "Ruah" which in its primary sense means breath, air, wind. "Jesus indeed uses the sensory image of the wind to suggest to Nicodemus the transcendent newness of him who is personally God's breath the divine Spirit" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 691). The spirit as irruption and as transcendence: working in history but other than history, who cannot be reduced to history's logic but who installs another logic, that of responsibility and love for others" LINK

As Psalms 139 notes: "You have searched me, LORD,and you know me." and also "7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?) Muslims - are under the law (Sharīʿah (Arabic: شريعة‎ šarīʿah, IPA: [ʃaˈriːʕa], "way" or "path") is the code of conduct or religious law of Islam and the Halakha (Hebrew: הלכה‎) — also transliterated Halocho (Ashkenazic Hebrew pronunciation), or Halacha— is the collective body of Jewish law however, there is a Spirit to the law in order to follow it faithfully and blamelessly = in order to enter into righteousness. So keep this thought in mind:

1 Corinthians 9

Paul’s Rights as an Apostle
"1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. (Even when the apostles are gone and away "we" still cling to the their gospel - and this is accredited to them still for those who come to believe through their writings -- correct?)

3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don’t we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who lack the right to not work for a living?

7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8 Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.”[b] Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?

But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast. 16 For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

Paul’s Use of His Freedom
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

The Need for Self-Discipline
24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

*************

We should pray and keep watch for those Christian members who will be leaving Libya, Lebanon and in Syria - much will be lost if those people "who had left it up to the bishops and deacons" will not unite and be strong in faith. So what then Arsenios? If the authorities are not strong and can't lead the people than can we assume this statement "22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!" Whatever happens in the West and in the Mediterranean countries will eventually come to our own country - because the battle is far away it will come to us soon. We can't leave "all" responsibility to those who have authority in our church - we have to strengthen them with our prayers and also to ask the Lord to strengthen us in ours.