Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox

[George Blaisdell]

"O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being" -

So as to deliver us from what has "no" being
(our own self pleasure in life - we didn't put God first in our lives) -
It is an out pour that we return back to God through Christ.

Mitzi, it is the evil one who has no being, the demons, Satan...
They are purely parasitic on the good...
Evil has no being, but is purely a perversion of the good...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

Mitzi, it is the evil one who has no being, the demons, Satan...
They are purely parasitic on the good...
Evil has no being, but is purely a perversion of the good...

Arsenios

"O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being" - So as to deliver us from what has "no" being (our own self pleasure in life - we didn't put God first in our lives) - It is an out pour that we return back to God through Christ

.

Same thing Arsenios - "What" or "Who" (as evil has no form - unless it takes a form through humans or animals by "entice/enˈtīs/Verb or enticement": Attract or tempt by offering pleasure or advantage' - as in the story of Adam and Eve, where "evil" became flesh and blood within their own actions (or even through our own actions when we sin)). Thus evil encourages us to turn away from God (Genesis 3:2 "“Did God really say,- as He then quoted the law from God to Adam "‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”) in order for man to centralize his our own self pleasures - it is the same as idolatry, "37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Idolatry is a "blind or excessive devotion to something: worshiping our pride, our respectability, our covetousness, or love of the world."

-The Biblical Greek term for sin is αμαρτία (amartia) which means missing the mark, it means that our aim is out and we have not reached our goal, our fullest potential. In Orthodoxy, our goal is union with God. Orthodoxy also understands sin as a disease of the soul, a condition where the soul is lacking in God's grace. Union with God which is made possible through Christ is the ultimate medicine. The mysteries of the Church, also known as sacraments in the West, are vehicles leading towards union with God. LINK

- Roman Catholic, Internal sins

That sin may be committed not only by outward deeds but also by the inner activity of the mind apart from any external manifestation, is plain from the precept of the Decalogue: "Thou shalt not covet", and from Christ's rebuke of the scribes and pharisees whom he likens to "whited sepulchres... full of all filthiness" (Matthew 23:27). Hence the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. v), in declaring that all mortal sins must be confessed, makes special mention of those that are most secret and that violate only the last two precepts of the Decalogue, adding that they "sometimes more grievously wound the soul and are more dangerous than sins which are openly committed". Three kinds of internal sin are usually distinguished:

* delectatio morosa, i.e. the pleasure taken in a sinful thought or imagination even without desiring it;
* gaudium, i.e. dwelling with complacency on sins already committed; and
* desiderium, i.e. the desire for what is sinful.

An efficacious desire, i.e. one that includes the deliberate intention to realize or gratify the desire, has the same malice, mortal or venial, as the action which it has in view....

*In general, Idolatry is anything that turns the human hearts away from the one true God. Even worries - In these cases, we must "ask" God to take away those worries - or frustrations that take us away from those things that disconnect our communion with God - as to bring peace within ourselves with God and Christ (John 17 " 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity."). However, and here's where I'm stuck "in the case of" illness or sickness, how does this play a part in order to be healed when someone needs the assists of others.

*It takes some effort not to idolize traditions intended to be a helpful guide on the spiritual journey and not to let them become ends in themselves that kill your friendship with God and give you the appearance of godliness without its power (2 Tim. 3:5 "2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, thankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God)

*19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 (New International Version, ©2011)

[mitzi]

Mitzi, it is the evil one who has no being, the demons, Satan...
They are purely parasitic on the good...
Evil has no being, but is purely a perversion of the good...

Arsenios

Right - with the help of God we can turn away from what is unhealthy for us and our souls (.....Matthew 19:26 "Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.") So when Esther prayed, she was imploring God to "not" turn away from her request- but for God to hear her request and also to help - "O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being" - When God lends assistance to our needs - evil can't preside:

"That is, no anxiety. Commit your way to God. The evil, the trouble, the anxiety of each day as it comes, is sufficient without perplexing the mind with restless cares about another day. It is wholly uncertain whether you live to see another day. If you do, it will bring its own trouble, and it will also bring the proper supply of your needs. God will be the same Father then as today, and will make then, as he does now, proper provision for your wants. The morrow shall take thought - The morrow will have anxieties and cares of its own, but it will also bring the proper provision for those cares. Though you will have needs, yet God will provide for them as they occur. Do not, therefore, increase the cares of today by borrowing trouble from the future. Do your duty faithfully now, and depend upon the mercy of God and his divine help for the troubles which are yet to come.

Remarks On Matthew 6 "Matthew 6:34"

1. Christ has here forcibly taught the necessity of charity, of prayer, and of all religious duties.

2. We see the necessity of sincerity and honesty in our religious duties. They are not to be done to be seen by people. If they are, they cannot be performed acceptably. God looks upon the heart, nor is it possible to deceive Him. And of what avail is it to deceive people? How poor and pitiable is the reward of a hypocrite! How contemptible the praise of people when God is displeased! How awful will be the condition of such a one beyond the grave!

3. Christ has here, in a particular manner, urged the duty of prayer. He has given a model for prayer. Nothing can equal this composition in simplicity, beauty, and comprehensiveness. At the same time that it is so simple that it can be understood by a child, it contains the expression of all the needs of man at any age and in every rank of life.

The duty of prayer is urged by every consideration. None but God can provide for us; none but He can forgave, and guide, and support us; none but He can bring us into heaven. He is always ready to hear us. The humble He sends not empty away. Those who ask receive, and they who seek find. How natural and proper, then, is prayer! How strange that any man can live, and not pour out his desires to God! How strange that anyone is willing to go to eternity with this sad reflection: "I have gone through this world, spent my probation, wasted my strength, and am dying, and have never prayed!" How awful will be the reflection of the soul through all eternity: "I was offered eternal life, but I never asked for it. I lived from day to day and from year to year in God's world, breathed His air, rioted on His beneficence, forgot His goodness, and never once asked Him to save my soul!" Who will be to blame if the prayerless soul is lost?" Barnes' Notes on the Bible

In Luke 1:46 "My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior" the understanding is that 1st the soul is first charge with the "Word" of God and then the "Spirit" receives it and exclaims verbally - through the mouth - correct? Ok, then Jesus tells us In Matthew 23:26 "Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." - so it comes inside 1st and then the "outside" will be clean - all internally until it reaches "our" outside (physical) form. Everything happens from the inside then to the outside -

[George Blaisdell]

.

Same thing Arsenios - "What" or "Who" (as evil has no form - unless it takes a form through humans or animals by "entice/enˈtīs/Verb or enticement": Attract or tempt by offering pleasure or advantage' - as in the story of Adam and Eve, where "evil" became flesh and blood within their own actions (or even through our own actions when we sin)). Thus evil encourages us to turn away from God (Genesis 3:2 "“Did God really say,- as He then quoted the law from God to Adam "‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”) in order for man to centralize his our own self pleasures - it is the same as idolatry, "37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Idolatry is a "blind or excessive devotion to something: worshiping our pride, our respectability, our covetousness, or love of the world."

-The Biblical Greek term for sin is αμαρτία (amartia) which means missing the mark, it means that our aim is out and we have not reached our goal, our fullest potential. In Orthodoxy, our goal is union with God. Orthodoxy also understands sin as a disease of the soul, a condition where the soul is lacking in God's grace. Union with God which is made possible through Christ is the ultimate medicine. The mysteries of the Church, also known as sacraments in the West, are vehicles leading towards union with God. LINK

- Roman Catholic, Internal sins

That sin may be committed not only by outward deeds but also by the inner activity of the mind apart from any external manifestation, is plain from the precept of the Decalogue: "Thou shalt not covet", and from Christ's rebuke of the scribes and pharisees whom he likens to "whited sepulchres... full of all filthiness" (Matthew 23:27). Hence the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. v), in declaring that all mortal sins must be confessed, makes special mention of those that are most secret and that violate only the last two precepts of the Decalogue, adding that they "sometimes more grievously wound the soul and are more dangerous than sins which are openly committed". Three kinds of internal sin are usually distinguished:

* delectatio morosa, i.e. the pleasure taken in a sinful thought or imagination even without desiring it;
* gaudium, i.e. dwelling with complacency on sins already committed; and
* desiderium, i.e. the desire for what is sinful.

An efficacious desire, i.e. one that includes the deliberate intention to realize or gratify the desire, has the same malice, mortal or venial, as the action which it has in view....

*In general, Idolatry is anything that turns the human hearts away from the one true God. Even worries - In these cases, we must "ask" God to take away those worries - or frustrations that take us away from those things that disconnect our communion with God - as to bring peace within ourselves with God and Christ (John 17 " 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity."). However, and here's where I'm stuck "in the case of" illness or sickness, how does this play a part in order to be healed when someone needs the assists of others.

*It takes some effort not to idolize traditions intended to be a helpful guide on the spiritual journey and not to let them become ends in themselves that kill your friendship with God and give you the appearance of godliness without its power (2 Tim. 3:5 "2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, thankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God)

*19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 (New International Version, ©2011)

"O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being."

The ontological status of evil is what is in view here, that's all...

Evil has no being...

The rest is just pontifical verbiage...

Which I am not reading...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

"O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being."

The ontological status of evil is what is in view here, that's all...

Evil has no being...

The rest is just pontifical verbiage...

Which I am not reading...

Arsenios

O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being" - So as to deliver us from what has "no" being (our own self pleasure in life - as we didn't put God first in our lives) - It is an out pour that we return back to God through Christ.

Knowing that all things come from God - and that we are not to worship them or idolize them (Admire, revere, or love greatly or excessively) as these things have "no being" - and yes, they are evil when we make them 1st in our lives and they have power over ourselves (like any pleasure that takes control over us, for example, our work (job) as we make it our 1st priority over making time for church and family) - any thing over and beyond God becomes evil because it is the very thing we chase after -- or worship (idolatry). In the case, of Esther, read "9 And my nation is this Israel, which cried to God, and were saved: for the Lord hath saved his people, and the Lord hath delivered us from all those evils, and God hath wrought signs and great wonders, which have not been done among the Gentiles."

Edit*Esther in her prayer to God - was asking for help - as to not hand them over to a nation that worshipped other gods - as they seek the pleasures of life. When "some thing" has taken control over our ability to function and to worship God, we pray to God because we are weak - and we ask God to make us strong. I like to think of this as God speaking to Moses ( as Moses was frighten to stand up to Pharaoh) - 12 And God said, “I will be with you." Esther was waiting for that acknowledgement - that God will be with the Jewish people even in spite of their sinning.

(**Famous for his lavish drinking parties and his extravagant promises and gifts, Xerxes [Achashverosh] also had, on occasion, a nast, irrational temper. http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_esther.html)

-- Now, as we see that this king had nothing to do but to display the glory of his kingdom, so also man, when he first appeared on earth, had nothing to do but display the glory of God who indwelt him and to rule in dominion over the earth given to him. But this king lifted himself up in pride and tried to destroy his queen. That is, he tried to disgrace her by summoning her to display her beauty before the whole court.

--This is a picture of us, paralleling the account of the fall of man, when man chose to assert his reason over the supremacy of revelation. In the palace of man's spirit, symbolized by the queen in this story, dwelt the God of glory and truth. It was there that the mind, emotions, and will of man were guided by fellowship with the living Lord, who dwelt in the royal residence of the spirit. Man was to subject his reason to revelation and in doing so he would fulfill his destiny and utilize the full powers of his humanity in the purpose for which they were intended. However, as you know, there was introduced into life a principle that tempted man to assert the power of his reason over revelation. Man began to choose what he himself wanted to do, rather than what God wanted him to do, and with this came the fall.

ESTHER: A QUEEN UNDER CONTROL
by Ray C. Stedman

Mitzi

[mitzi]

[QUOTE]

No... Orthodoxy is not denominational - It is descriptive...

A denomination is a branch named after a person...

Lutherans are a denomination named after Martin Luther, you see...

We are pre-denominational...

Well, then I beg a differ with you on this - there are Western Rites - and then there is the Eastern Rites - What was most distinguishing for a time was that the Eastern rites prayed in Greek (and Slavonic) and the West prayed in Latin - jurisdictionalism still exists.. there is an Ukrainian Orthodox bishop of Chicago, a Greek Orthodox bishop of Chicago, an OCA bishop of Chicago, a Serbian Orthodox bishop of Chicago, and a ROCOR bishop of Chicago

**
The Synod of Bishops Holds its First Session of 2011

On Tuesday, February 8, 2011, the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia held its first session of the year, chaired by His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of Eastern America and New York. Participating in this session were His Eminence Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany; His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, Secretary of the Synod of Bishops; His Grace Bishop Gabriel of Montreal and Canada; His Grace Bishop Peter of Cleveland, Administrator of the Diocese of Chicago and Mid-America and Treasurer of the Synod of Bishops, and His Grace Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Vicar of the Eastern American Diocese. Opening the session, Metropolitan Hilarion greeted the members of the Synod of Bishops and reported on the plenum of the Inter-Council Presence in Moscow, the work of the Holy Synod and of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church. His Eminence then proposed forming a committee to plan the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia scheduled to be held in New York from May 10-17 of this year. Headed by the President of the Synod of Bishops, it was decided that the committee would include Bishop Gabriel, Bishop Peter and Bishop Jerome, as well as Protopriest Andrei Sommer, Vice President of the Synodal Youth Department and Senior Priest of the Synodal Cathedral of Our Lady “of the Sign,” Protopriest Serafim Gan, Secretary of the First Hierarch of ROCOR, and Prince Vladimir Galitzine, Warden of the Synodal Cathedral. **

Also, there's some good reading material listed down below: (and Yes, these are Orthodox websites)

One Church and Several Liturgies From Lux Occidentalis, by Fr. John Connely

See pic's on Western Rites: http://www.stgeorgelawrence.org/n_im...lides/120.html

In Common

* They are Apostolic
* The Sacraments
* The Saints
* The Holy Traditions (including the Bible)
* They recognize the Canons/Rules of the Seven Ecumenical ("World-Wide") Councils
* Pascha ("Easter")
* Christmas

Not in Common

* The culture - The East is familiar to Greek, Russian and Arabic languages/cultures, and the West is more familiar to Americans and English languages/cultures
* The Clergy Vestments
* The Liturgy/Mass - The East primarily uses the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, and the West primarily uses the Liturgy of Saint Gregory the Great.
* The East has an Iconostasis ("Icon Wall") separating the Sanctuary from the rest of the church, and the West either has a rail (like the old Roman Catholic style) or nothing at all separating the Sanctuary from the rest of the church

Another important note of difference is that the Eastern-Rite Orthodox Church did not get impacted as much by the things like the Protestant Reformation or the abuses of the Roman Patriarchs (now called the Pope) of the 9th century through today. However, the Western-Rite Orthodox Church definitely did and, as a result, a major effort was made to restore the Western-Rite Liturgies so those more familiar to the Western Culture could once again worship in the ancient Christian ways without having to adapt to another ethnic culture.

For the last hundred years there has been a steady stream of Western Christians coming into Holy Orthodoxy and using the Restored Western Rites. Today one finds The Orthodox Church of France using the Gallican Rite, The Milan Synod using the Sarum Rite, The Antiochian Archdiocese using the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and the Liturgy of Saint Tihkon, The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia using the Dom Augustine Liturgy which is based on the old Orthodox Roman Liturgy, and The Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church of America which has blessed the old Orthodox Roman Rite, though, for pastoral reasons the other Orthodox Western Rites may be used.Eastern Orthodox vs. Western Orthodox

George Blaisdell;3222837:

We are not in Communion with Rome because Rome departed from our Communion... When She repents and returns to the orthodoxy She had prior to 1054, we can re-establish Communion...


The differences are huge, but begin with different answers to this key question:

"Who is the Head of the Body of Christ on earth?"

You think it is Pope Benedict...

We knows it is Christ...

When you confess your error and repent from it...
There will be great rejoicing...
In the heavens and upon the earth.

Arsenios

Arsenios - the issue isn't just the fact that the Pope (who by the council) was listed as "bishops of bishops" - to quote:

CCEO Canon 43
The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.

Patriarchial Eastern Churches

CCEO Canon 56
A patriarch is a bishop who enjoys power over all bishops including metropolitans and other Christian faithful of the Church over which he presides according to the norm of law approved by the supreme authority of the Church.

CCEO Canon 78
1. The power which, according to the norm of the canons and legitimate customs, the patriarch has over bishops and other Christian faithful of the Church over which he presides is ordinary and proper, but personal. Thus, the patriarch cannot constitute a vicar for the entire patriarchal Church nor can he delegate his power to someone for all cases.
2. The power of the patriarch is exercised validly only inside the territorial boundaries of the patriarchal Church unless the nature of the matter or the common or particular law approved by the Roman Pontiff establishes otherwise.

CCEO Canon 79
The patriarch represents the patriarchal Church in all its juridic affairs.

Metropolitan Eastern Churches

CCEO Canon 157
1. The power which a metropolitan possesses according to the norm of law over the bishops and other Christian faithful of the metropolitan Church over which he presides, is ordinary and proper, but personal; thus, he cannot constitute a vicar for the entire metropolitan Church sui iuris nor delegate his power to a certain person for all cases. 2. The power of the metropolitan and the council of hierarchs is validly exercised only within the territorial boundaries of the metropolitan Church sui iuris.
3. The metropolitan represents the metropolitan Church sui iuris in all its juridic affairs.

Other Eastern Churches

Canon 190
The eparchial bishop represents the eparchy in all its juridic affairs.

Now here's my question??????? and From your statement - you've seem to be putting the blame on the pope for "all" of this and also the next question, it's not *Just* the issue of his supremacy.....it is also (and I would assume this by your post) on theology issues??? - or on any Pope???? No matter if the theology (and given his educational background as a teacher and scholar) you still think that his explanation on scripture is incorrect even though you haven't read any of his books?

Mitzi

P.S. those pic's were great! They look exactly like it use to be when I was very little girl.

[George Blaisdell]

[QUOTE=mitzi;3226309]

Well, then I beg a differ with you on this - there are Western Rites - and then there is the Eastern Rites - What was most distinguishing for a time was that the Eastern rites prayed in Greek (and Slavonic) and the West prayed in Latin - jurisdictionalism still exists.. there is an Ukrainian Orthodox bishop of Chicago, a Greek Orthodox bishop of Chicago, an OCA bishop of Chicago, a Serbian Orthodox bishop of Chicago, and a ROCOR bishop of Chicago

**
The Synod of Bishops Holds its First Session of 2011

On Tuesday, February 8, 2011, the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia held its first session of the year, chaired by His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of Eastern America and New York. Participating in this session were His Eminence Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany; His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, Secretary of the Synod of Bishops; His Grace Bishop Gabriel of Montreal and Canada; His Grace Bishop Peter of Cleveland, Administrator of the Diocese of Chicago and Mid-America and Treasurer of the Synod of Bishops, and His Grace Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Vicar of the Eastern American Diocese. Opening the session, Metropolitan Hilarion greeted the members of the Synod of Bishops and reported on the plenum of the Inter-Council Presence in Moscow, the work of the Holy Synod and of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church. His Eminence then proposed forming a committee to plan the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia scheduled to be held in New York from May 10-17 of this year. Headed by the President of the Synod of Bishops, it was decided that the committee would include Bishop Gabriel, Bishop Peter and Bishop Jerome, as well as Protopriest Andrei Sommer, Vice President of the Synodal Youth Department and Senior Priest of the Synodal Cathedral of Our Lady “of the Sign,” Protopriest Serafim Gan, Secretary of the First Hierarch of ROCOR, and Prince Vladimir Galitzine, Warden of the Synodal Cathedral. **

Also, there's some good reading material listed down below: (and Yes, these are Orthodox websites)

One Church and Several Liturgies From Lux Occidentalis, by Fr. John Connely

See pic's on Western Rites: http://www.stgeorgelawrence.org/n_im...lides/120.html

Variations in Rites do not constitute denominations...
Christ is the Head of His Body...
Glad you liked the pics...

Arsenios






Arsenios - the issue isn't just the fact that the Pope (who by the council) was listed as "bishops of bishops" - to quote:


Now here's my question??????? and From your statement - you've seem to be putting the blame on the pope for "all" of this and also the next question, it's not *Just* the issue of his supremacy.....it is also (and I would assume this by your post) on theology issues??? - or on any Pope???? No matter if the theology (and given his educational background as a teacher and scholar) you still think that his explanation on scripture is incorrect even though you haven't read any of his books?

Mitzi

P.S. those pic's were great! They look exactly like it use to be when I was very little girl.

[George Blaisdell]

[QUOTE=mitzi;3226309]

Well, then I beg a differ with you on this - there are Western Rites - and then there is the Eastern Rites - What was most distinguishing for a time was that the Eastern rites prayed in Greek (and Slavonic) and the West prayed in Latin - jurisdictionalism still exists.. there is an Ukrainian Orthodox bishop of Chicago, a Greek Orthodox bishop of Chicago, an OCA bishop of Chicago, a Serbian Orthodox bishop of Chicago, and a ROCOR bishop of Chicago

**
The Synod of Bishops Holds its First Session of 2011

On Tuesday, February 8, 2011, the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia held its first session of the year, chaired by His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of Eastern America and New York. Participating in this session were His Eminence Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany; His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, Secretary of the Synod of Bishops; His Grace Bishop Gabriel of Montreal and Canada; His Grace Bishop Peter of Cleveland, Administrator of the Diocese of Chicago and Mid-America and Treasurer of the Synod of Bishops, and His Grace Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Vicar of the Eastern American Diocese. Opening the session, Metropolitan Hilarion greeted the members of the Synod of Bishops and reported on the plenum of the Inter-Council Presence in Moscow, the work of the Holy Synod and of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church. His Eminence then proposed forming a committee to plan the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia scheduled to be held in New York from May 10-17 of this year. Headed by the President of the Synod of Bishops, it was decided that the committee would include Bishop Gabriel, Bishop Peter and Bishop Jerome, as well as Protopriest Andrei Sommer, Vice President of the Synodal Youth Department and Senior Priest of the Synodal Cathedral of Our Lady “of the Sign,” Protopriest Serafim Gan, Secretary of the First Hierarch of ROCOR, and Prince Vladimir Galitzine, Warden of the Synodal Cathedral. **

Also, there's some good reading material listed down below: (and Yes, these are Orthodox websites)

One Church and Several Liturgies From Lux Occidentalis, by Fr. John Connely

See pic's on Western Rites: http://www.stgeorgelawrence.org/n_im...lides/120.html






Arsenios - the issue isn't just the fact that the Pope (who by the council) was listed as "bishops of bishops" - to quote:


Now here's my question??????? and From your statement - you've seem to be putting the blame on the pope for "all" of this and also the next question, it's not *Just* the issue of his supremacy.....it is also (and I would assume this by your post) on theology issues??? - or on any Pope???? No matter if the theology (and given his educational background as a teacher and scholar) you still think that his explanation on scripture is incorrect even though you haven't read any of his books?

Mitzi

P.S. those pic's were great! They look exactly like it use to be when I was very little girl.

Variations in Rites do not constitute denominations...
Christ is the Head of His Body...
Glad you liked the pics...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

[QUOTE=George Blaisdell;3226817]

Variations in Rites do not constitute denominations...
Christ is the Head of His Body...
Glad you liked the pics...

Arsenios

but they maybe constituted by indicating "churches" also there are variations between eastern and western rites - especially when it comes to ordinations - is this correct? One more bit of information:

Joint Working Group with the Roman Catholic Church

Cardinal Koch sounds “an ecumenical keynote” during Geneva visit
11.05.11

Timeline of the East-West Schism
of the Catholic and Orthodox Church

The East-West Schism, known also as the Great Schism (though this latter term sometimes refers to the later Western Schism), was the event that divided Chalcedonian Christianity into Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Though normally dated to 1054, when Pope Leo IX and Patriarch Michael I excommunicated each other, the East-West Schism was actually the result of an extended period of estrangement between the two Churches. The primary causes of the Schism were disputes over papal authority—the Pope claimed he held authority over the four Eastern patriarchs, while the four eastern patriarchs claimed that the primacy of the Patriarch of Rome was only honorary, and thus he had authority only over Western Christians—and over the insertion of the filioque clause into the Nicene Creed. There were other, less significant catalysts for the Schism, including variance over liturgical practices and conflicting claims of jurisdiction

Also, on another note - which was mentioned but not acknowledged: there are some differences in doctrinal, theological, linguistic, political, and also (jurisdictions) geographic lines,

[Kelp]

I had a long post on this done, then my browser crashed...

Fr. Andrew Damick of Saint Paul Antiochian has a great podcast series (and now book) on Orthodox differences with other groups.

http://www.saintpaulemmaus.org/audio.html

From his two part lecture on the RCC, the obstacles to unity are:

Papal infallibility, jurisdiction over all churches, authority over Ecumenical Councils, and sole Petrine succession (the OC believe all bishops sit on Peter's throne).

Different views on Atonement.

Different views on Original Sin.

The RCC believes new doctrines can be developed over time, the OC believes tradition is unchanging).

Divine Simplicity vs. the Essence/Energy distinction.

The Filioque.

Purgatory and Indulgences.

The RCC's doctrine of created grace.

A possibly more minor difference is that the RCC has a very rationalistic worldview while the OC is...I'm not sure what to call it. Holistic?

[George Blaisdell]

http://www.saintpaulemmaus.org/audio.html

This is a fabulous website...

I started with "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy"...

I will be here awhile!

Thank-You Kelp!

Arsenios

[George Blaisdell]

A possibly more minor difference is that the RCC has a very rationalistic worldview while the OC is...I'm not sure what to call it. Holistic?

The difference is that between epistemic certainty prational deduction]

VS

Theosis [via repentance in the Faith]


Others call it pride vs humility
or
Reason vs Faith
or
Authoritarianism vs Conciliarism


It is indeed an holistic, Christ centered approach, rather than the rationalistic Latin Papal Inerrant Authoritarian approach...

Arsenios

[Kelp]

This is a fabulous website...

I started with "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy"...

I will be here awhile!

Thank-You Kelp!

Arsenios

You're welcome

It is indeed an holistic, Christ centered approach, rather than the rationalistic Latin Papal Inerrant Authoritarian approach...

It seems like it's unconcerned or at least not very concerned if apparent contradictions pop up sort of in the periphery as long as an idea conforms to the "big picture" of the body of Orthodox teaching.

[mitzi]

I had a long post on this done, then my browser crashed...

Fr. Andrew Damick of Saint Paul Antiochian has a great podcast series (and now book) on Orthodox differences with other groups.

http://www.saintpaulemmaus.org/audio.html

From his two part lecture on the RCC, the obstacles to unity are:

Papal infallibility, jurisdiction over all churches, authority over Ecumenical Councils, and sole Petrine succession (the OC believe all bishops sit on Peter's throne).

Different views on Atonement.

Different views on Original Sin.

The RCC believes new doctrines can be developed over time, the OC believes tradition is unchanging).

Divine Simplicity vs. the Essence/Energy distinction.

The Filioque.

Purgatory and Indulgences.

The RCC's doctrine of created grace.

A possibly more minor difference is that the RCC has a very rationalistic worldview while the OC is...I'm not sure what to call it. Holistic?

Hi Kelp;

Thanks for the information - however, the question that I have is on ordination and even more than that - on conversions. Let say someone from the Roman Catholic church wants to convert to Orthodoxy - then would it be require for that individual to be re-baptized? Do they consider a baptismal from the RCC to be valid? And if not, why? - I think this issue should be added on to the list - unless we consider this to be under "Different views on Atonement" - reconciliation between God and man, baptism. As I've (also) read other threads on the subject - am I to consider those thread as being valid on the subject. The topic was on the RCC sacraments verses the Orthodox. Again, I know that you've written on the subject but no comments where made with such velocity as this thread.

The idea of unity - and how the two church, administratively ((?) as looking at the list above) - or as members of a community in Christ, as I've read recent articles listed - on this thread and others (through Theologyweb), will ever make that connection grow, together? How will the theologians agree to these terms on both sides of the table? (inspired knowledge of, and teaching about, the essential nature of God) And also how do you think, and being in the RCC, and if this happens, what the reversals will cause (again, perhaps from either side) which has already taken on a different form before - so far - without the confusion being done all over again? I think that this is a major undertaking as to what to believe in and how to structure our teachings - I think - there are good points and some that really don't need change but given more clarifications. There had been changes that were (at one time) very strict Orthodox view (not conservation) to a very liberal view - couple of them being:

• Unleavened bread is used in the Western Eucharist; leaven bread is used in the East.
  
• The West begins a process toward an all-celibate clergy, based upon the growing East-West trend of electing only celibate monks as bishops.

There are more issues to be discussed but all articles - both Orthodox listed on other post and yours - will lead to some good information on all subjects.
First two thoughts are -

"And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins." Mark 2:22

"Her ways are ways of pleasantness and all her paths are peace" (Prov. 3:17) and also "that which emanates from the heart enters the heart." As to mean from another scriptural sense "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." People - leaders take in what they know to be the way to peace - and it reaches their soul (if) it is the right way - toward the path to peace. That being both churches have agreed on the changes in order to bring unification and simplicity to scripture both administrative (jurisdiction - wise) and also reconcilation . In the same way that Paul said that the word of God “is at work in you who believe” (1 Thessalonians 2:13). There is a dynamic power in the Scriptures. If we seek God, he will work through his word to guide us and teach us.

[Kelp]

Do they consider a baptismal from the RCC to be valid? And if not, why?

Usually they don't rebaptize, as long as it's in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-that's the only thing they really insist on. There might be special issues that are handled case by case, but generally they don't re-baptize heterodox Christians. Usually they'll have you recite an affirmation of the specific Orthodox doctrines your old church rejected and then the laying on of hands.

As I've (also) read other threads on the subject - am I to consider those thread as being valid on the subject. The topic was on the RCC sacraments verses the Orthodox.

Well, I'm not even Orthodox so don't think I'm some kind of ultimate authority. I'm just trying going off my research and I could be wrong.

Generally, the Orthodox view of the Eucharist is that they have the true one, but they have no idea whether anyone else does. Baptisms, marriages, and ordinations are similarly held in "maybe-maybe not" territory but the good will toward God is recognized and the usual practice is to just do a sort of "re-confirming" ritual to make everything all complete and Orthodox like above.

The idea of unity - and how the two church, administratively ((?) as looking at the list above) - or as members of a community in Christ, as I've read recent articles listed - on this thread and others (through Theologyweb), will ever make that connection grow, together? How will the theologians agree to these terms on both sides of the table? (inspired knowledge of, and teaching about, the essential nature of God) And also how do you think, and being in the RCC, and if this happens, what the reversals will cause (again, perhaps from either side) which has already taken on a different form before - so far - without the confusion being done all over again? I think that this is a major undertaking as to what to believe in and how to structure our teachings - I think - there are good points and some that really don't need change but given more clarifications. There had been changes that were (at one time) very strict Orthodox view (not conservation) to a very liberal view - couple of them being:

True unity is going to take a long time, yep. Father Damick says that although he yearns for it, he doubts it will be in the lifetime of his grandchildren.

Unleavened bread is used in the Western Eucharist; leaven bread is used in the East.
The West begins a process toward an all-celibate clergy, based upon the growing East-West trend of electing only celibate monks as bishops.

Yeah.

There are more issues to be discussed but all articles - both Orthodox listed on other post and yours - will lead to some good information on all subjects.
First two thoughts are -

"And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins." Mark 2:22

"Her ways are ways of pleasantness and all her paths are peace" (Prov. 3:17) and also "that which emanates from the heart enters the heart." As to mean from another scriptural sense "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." People - leaders take in what they know to be the way to peace - and it reaches their soul (if) it is the right way - toward the path to peace. That being both churches have agreed on the changes in order to bring unification and simplicity to scripture both administrative (jurisdiction - wise) and also reconcilation . In the same way that Paul said that the word of God “is at work in you who believe” (1 Thessalonians 2:13). There is a dynamic power in the Scriptures. If we seek God, he will work through his word to guide us and teach us.

Good thoughts they are! May we all press on to His glory and love for one another!

God bless you. Christ is risen!