Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox

[One Bad Pig]

Usually they don't rebaptize, as long as it's in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-that's the only thing they really insist on. There might be special issues that are handled case by case, but generally they don't re-baptize heterodox Christians. Usually they'll have you recite an affirmation of the specific Orthodox doctrines your old church rejected and then the laying on of hands.

Strictly speaking, every convert to Orthodoxy should be baptized at the time of conversion (this is never, ever, called rebaptism). However, in practice many jurisdictions allow a convert to be received by chrismation through the idea of economy, wherein chrismation makes valid the heterodox baptism performed earlier. This is done on a case by case basis with the permission of the bishop. The ROCOR always receives converts through baptism and chrismation.

[Kelp]

Ah. Ok.

[mitzi]

Strictly speaking, every convert to Orthodoxy should be baptized at the time of conversion (this is never, ever, called rebaptism). However, in practice many jurisdictions allow a convert to be received by chrismation through the idea of economy, wherein chrismation makes valid the heterodox baptism performed earlier. This is done on a case by case basis with the permission of the bishop. The ROCOR always receives converts through baptism and chrismation.

Well, what makes the sacrament partially valid or invalid? - By choice of words, it is in a sense a validation process through Chrismation ("The seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit")

"Chrismation is practiced by anointing the new Christian with chrism, which is holy oil (Gk. myron). The myron is a "mixture of forty sweet-smelling substances and pure olive oil" (Gialopsos, 35). The Christian is anointed with this oil in the sign of the Cross on his forehead, eyes, nostrils, mouth, ears, chest, hands and feet. Each time, the priest administering the sacrament says, "The Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit." Chrismation

"To understand Baptism, which is a Sacrament of the Church and along with Chrismation, which is the means whereby a person dies to sin and rises to new life as a regenerated creature, we are then incorporated mystically into the Body of Christ (Father, Son and Holy Spirit John 17 - "23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. "), that being the Church. This only happens once in a person's lifetime. Even if he falls away from active life in Christ and then returns some time later he is already baptized and so cannot be baptized again."

Given the above as one example, the person who has reunited himself/herself back to God is doing "so" through the process of receiving - but this person had not changed the status of his/her church - as a convert. However, if someone converts from the Catholic Church to the Orthodox church - the process of baptism isn't necessary for converting but is considered valid? - and can receive the Holy Eucharist? - after Chrismation and also giving that person right to confession under Orthodoxy.


St. Basil writes concerning Encratites:

"I deem therefore that since there is nothing definitely prescribed as regards them [Encratites] it was fitting that we should set their baptism aside and if any of them appears to have left, he shall be baptised upon entering the Church. If however this is to become an obstacle in the general economy of the Church, we must again follow the others who economically regulated thc Church [i.e., and not re-baptize]." (Canon 1)

So the Orthodox church regards the act of re-validation of baptism as a sin? true?

[One Bad Pig]

Well, what makes the sacrament partially valid or invalid? - By choice of words, it is in a sense a validation process through Chrismation ("The seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit")

"Chrismation is practiced by anointing the new Christian with chrism, which is holy oil (Gk. myron). The myron is a "mixture of forty sweet-smelling substances and pure olive oil" (Gialopsos, 35). The Christian is anointed with this oil in the sign of the Cross on his forehead, eyes, nostrils, mouth, ears, chest, hands and feet. Each time, the priest administering the sacrament says, "The Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit." Chrismation

"To understand Baptism, which is a Sacrament of the Church and along with Chrismation, which is the means whereby a person dies to sin and rises to new life as a regenerated creature, we are then incorporated mystically into the Body of Christ (Father, Son and Holy Spirit John 17 - "23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. "), that being the Church. This only happens once in a person's lifetime. Even if he falls away from active life in Christ and then returns some time later he is already baptized and so cannot be baptized again."

Given the above as one example, the person who has reunited himself/herself back to God is doing "so" through the process of receiving - but this person had not changed the status of his/her church - as a convert. However, if someone converts from the Catholic Church to the Orthodox church - the process of baptism isn't necessary for converting but is considered valid? - and can receive the Holy Eucharist? - after Chrismation and also giving that person right to confession under Orthodoxy.

Heterodox baptism is not considered valid. However, under the principle of economy, a bishop has the right to deem that chrismation can make up the deficiency in a convert's baptism, thus completing it and rendering it valid.

St. Basil writes concerning Encratites:

"I deem therefore that since there is nothing definitely prescribed as regards them [Encratites] it was fitting that we should set their baptism aside and if any of them appears to have left, he shall be baptised upon entering the Church. If however this is to become an obstacle in the general economy of the Church, we must again follow the others who economically regulated thc Church [i.e., and not re-baptize]." (Canon 1)

Yes, this is the same principle used today.

So the Orthodox church regards the act of re-validation of baptism as a sin? true?

Eh? There is no concept of "re-validation of baptism" in Orthodoxy.

[mitzi]

Heterodox baptism is not considered valid. However, under the principle of economy, a bishop has the right to deem that chrismation can make up the deficiency in a convert's baptism, thus completing it and rendering it valid.

Yes, this is the same principle used today.

Eh? There is no concept of "re-validation of baptism" in Orthodoxy.

re-validation of baptism as a sin? true?

(correction) a second time "validly," as it were—is considered a sin in Orthodoxy.

This is only to correct the response - no need for a reply, as I understand the reply back to me. Although - in someway, the information through other sources doesn't actually connect - and I'm not saying that the info you're giving is incorrect but the term has been used or applied...

ROCOR 're-baptizing' orthodox people?

http://www.monachos.net/forum/forum.php?

Favorite website: Orthodox website

The Sacrament of Baptism: http://www.saintbarbara.org/faith/sa...sm/baptism.cfm
and a good source of information

[Kelp]

The incident in that Monachos thread is an apparent aberration involving someone from a different Orthodox diocese being baptized by ROCOR. That's not standard practice in any Orthodox group, except if something weird happened like it wasn't in the name of the Trinity.

And remember, being received by baptism is not a statement either way about whether an individual non-orthodox can go to Heaven without having been baptized (think about the thief on the cross), that's up to God.

The Sacrament of Baptism: http://www.saintbarbara.org/faith/sa...sm/baptism.cfm
and a good source of information

Is that the church you're thinking of joining ? It looks very nice.

[mitzi]

[QUOTE]

The incident in that Monachos thread is an apparent aberration involving someone from a different Orthodox diocese being baptized by ROCOR. That's not standard practice in any Orthodox group, except if something weird happened like it wasn't in the name of the Trinity.

Thank you for clarifying this information.

And remember, being received by baptism is not a statement either way about whether an individual non-orthodox can go to Heaven without having been baptized (think about the thief on the cross), that's up to God.

True, however with baptism the actual blessing that comes from the priest helps to "enlighten" the Christian's journey in life - a "seal" to Christ, so to speak. We could look at marriage in the same flex - even when the priest says a blessing over the couple - in reality the priest is asking God's to protect the marriage from anything that could be externally or internally harmful - thus the blessing is a way to allow the marriage to grow. The priest is bringing (as well as the couple's) God into the picture - So the couple (in a marriage ) as the child (in baptism - united with parents) is then in union with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. What a great symbolism of the relationship - and how the family grows (in marriage) - when children enter in and receive their baptismal rites.

"The Blessing of the water begins with a Doxology (Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and forever and unto the ages of ages) that announces the Kingdom of God as the theme, the content, and the ultimate goal of Baptism. The Sacrament of Baptism begins the spiritual journey of the soon to be enlightened Christian, and the initial doxology reveals and announces its final destination: the Kingdom of God."

Is that the church you're thinking of joining ? It looks very nice.

No, I thought this was a wonderful article describing the gift (sacrament) of baptism. Also, I would like express my thanks to you as well as to the members who participated in the discussion. The topic really was a great (huge) help to me with information - which really made you think about many things - plus I got to search around other forums and really read up on (again) this topic. So I gained something from all this.



Take Care
Mitzi

[Kelp]

No prob. You're welcome .

[One Bad Pig]

The incident in that Monachos thread is an apparent aberration involving someone from a different Orthodox diocese being baptized by ROCOR. That's not standard practice in any Orthodox group, except if something weird happened like it wasn't in the name of the Trinity.

Also, note the date of that Monachos thread. At that time, the ROCOR was not in communion with Moscow, which could help explain what happened. I know that the ROCOR only began participating in SCOBA after reunification with Moscow in 2007.

[Kelp]

Oh, right.