Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox

[mitzi]

[QUOTE]

May you find great consolation, my Brother...

Arsenios

I found consolation on Divine Mercy Sunday but also I felt that strong commitment to Christ through the Orthodox as well as from Pope's Benedict's book "Jesus of Nazareth". All this had pointed me toward St. Ignatius - I have much to learn, Arsenios and also much to read but all this must be done with the Spirit guiding and leading me. I pray that I will be a better servant to Christ today and always.

Yes, brother - I'm very happy with Christ by my side!
Mitzi

[George Blaisdell]

We should pray and keep watch for those Christian members who will be leaving Libya, Lebanon and in Syria - much will be lost if those people "who had left it up to the bishops and deacons" will not unite and be strong in faith. So what then Arsenios? If the authorities are not strong and can't lead the people than can we assume this statement "22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!" Whatever happens in the West and in the Mediterranean countries will eventually come to our own country - because the battle is far away it will come to us soon. We can't leave "all" responsibility to those who have authority in our church - we have to strengthen them with our prayers and also to ask the Lord to strengthen us in ours.

The fruit of these persecutions is holiness...
The fruit of the west is secular atheism...

The Middle Eastern Christians, even those with whom the Eastern Orthodox are not in communion, are united one with another within their communion... And Christ is in control... If you want to see something big, just hang out with the Palestinian Christians in the US... They are commonly working miracles... And have prophetic vision into souls...

We do not seek worldly strength, but non-worldly strength... The Holy Spirit... And in the Holy Spirit, persecutions, deprivations, and torments are great treasures...

You see, we forsake the world... For the sake of entering the Kingdom of Heaven, which is at hand, but narrow is the way, and few who find it, but the persecuted almost have it HANDED to them...

You would do well to concern yourself with your own leadership...
Ours is the Lord Jesus Christ, and we call upon Him for our help...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

The fruit of these persecutions is holiness...
The fruit of the west is secular atheism...

The Middle Eastern Christians, even those with whom the Eastern Orthodox are not in communion, are united one with another within their communion... And Christ is in control... If you want to see something big, just hang out with the Palestinian Christians in the US... They are commonly working miracles... And have prophetic vision into souls...

We do not seek worldly strength, but non-worldly strength... The Holy Spirit... And in the Holy Spirit, persecutions, deprivations, and torments are great treasures...

You see, we forsake the world... For the sake of entering the Kingdom of Heaven, which is at hand, but narrow is the way, and few who find it, but the persecuted almost have it HANDED to them...

You would do well to concern yourself with your own leadership...
Ours is the Lord Jesus Christ, and we call upon Him for our help...

Arsenios

Hi Arsenios;

What a minute – Arsenios, are you saying that the Marionette population is under the Orthodox denomination? – Also, did you misunderstand my comments – you know the conversation which had started out to be very good ended up with taking back what Christ gives. Our Christian bishops, deacons, and also brother and sisters writings comes from the inspiration of the Spirit of God – so within them, and it doesn’t matter if they are denominational, Christ becomes present and alive among us – and also that their insightfulness’ is a gift from God. As scripture tells us: “ Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in Heaven. For where two or three are gathered in My Name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18: 19-20)

“

"If the authorities are not strong and can't lead the people (by their messages) than can we assume this statement "22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!" – meaning if man’s heart is not good, then nothing else can turn out good, either. And the goodness of the human heart can ultimately come only from the One who is goodness, who is the Good itself." If I stretch this farther it could mean that the body (community – of bodies) isn’t drawing from the One truth.

We "all of us " draw from the one source - which is the Light of God, Jesus. I am saying, Arsenios, if we don't "LISTEN" to what these bishops and deacons are telling us than "HOW" can we draw the good! - Also, we (you and I ) weren’t discussing the Palestinian Christians but about the people who are leaving those areas of the country that have “NO” choice but to leave. However, if we left the responsibilities up to “just” the “bishops and deacons" and left the congregation out of this – I said “what then?” - As this makes up the body of Christ – all members of the “Christian” community whether Orthodox or not we are made up in communion with Christ and also act as one body!

In your previous comment to me, which I didn’t take as personal, you said “The differences between the Latin Confession and that of the Orthodox could not be clearer...” –
Yes, perhaps! As you helped me to “see” this differences.

Mitzi

[George Blaisdell]

What a minute – Arsenios, are you saying that the Marionette population is under the Orthodox denomination? –

No... Orthodoxy is not denominational - It is descriptive...

A denomination is a branch named after a person...

Lutherans are a denomination named after Martin Luther, you see...

We are pre-denominational...

Also, did you misunderstand my comments –

Probably...

you know the conversation which had started out to be very good ended up with taking back what Christ gives.

Never came into view - I did not read the lecture...

Our Christian bishops, deacons, and also brother and sisters writings comes from the inspiration of the Spirit of God – so within them, and it doesn’t matter if they are denominational, Christ becomes present and alive among us – and also that their insightfulness’ is a gift from God. As scripture tells us: “ Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in Heaven. For where two or three are gathered in My Name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18: 19-20)

Well, there you are then: Deuces and Jokers Wild...

We "all of us " draw from the one source - which is the Light of God, Jesus.

This created and fallen world has TWO sources, one good and one evil, operating in each and every one of us...

I am saying, Arsenios, if we don't "LISTEN" to what these bishops and deacons are telling us than "HOW" can we draw the good!

-

Oh, we listen - I was listening to your quote from the good Cardinal R... And found it to be all about symbolism and none about ontology...

Also, we (you and I ) weren’t discussing the Palestinian Christians but about the people who are leaving those areas of the country that have “NO” choice but to leave.

They want to leave... Who can blame them?

However, if we left the responsibilities up to “just” the “bishops and deacons" and left the congregation out of this – I said “what then?” - As this makes up the body of Christ – all members of the “Christian” community whether Orthodox or not we are made up in communion with Christ and also act as one body!

We are not in Communion with Rome because Rome departed from our Communion... When She repents and returns to the orthodoxy She had prior to 1054, we can re-establish Communion...

In your previous comment to me, which I didn’t take as personal, you said “The differences between the Latin Confession and that of the Orthodox could not be clearer...” –
Yes, perhaps! As you helped me to “see” this differences.

The differences are huge, but begin with different answers to this key question:

"Who is the Head of the Body of Christ on earth?"

You think it is Pope Benedict...

We knows it is Christ...

When you confess your error and repent from it...
There will be great rejoicing...
In the heavens and upon the earth.

Arsenios

[mitzi]

No... Orthodoxy is not denominational - It is descriptive...

A denomination is a branch named after a person...

Lutherans are a denomination named after Martin Luther, you see...

We are pre-denominational...



Probably...



Never came into view - I did not read the lecture...



Well, there you are then: Deuces and Jokers Wild...



This created and fallen world has TWO sources, one good and one evil, operating in each and every one of us...

-

Oh, we listen - I was listening to your quote from the good Cardinal R... And found it to be all about symbolism and none about ontology...



They want to leave... Who can blame them?



We are not in Communion with Rome because Rome departed from our Communion... When She repents and returns to the orthodoxy She had prior to 1054, we can re-establish Communion...



The differences are huge, but begin with different answers to this key question:

"Who is the Head of the Body of Christ on earth?"

You think it is Pope Benedict...

We knows it is Christ...

When you confess your error and repent from it...
There will be great rejoicing...
In the heavens and upon the earth.

Arsenios

Hi Arsenios;

We knows it is Christ...

When you confess your error and repent from it...
There will be great rejoicing...
In the heavens and upon the earth.

"When" I repent??- so are you saying that you have the authority to put someone back into the same prison that Christ just released them from? - If you read about Divine Mercy Sunday or Sunday of St. Thomas then you would have rejoiced with me brother - over the fact that someone had just received his grace and mercy - as this had been a real dry spell. You know, Arsenios, I read the news articles between the two hierarchies (Roman and Orthodox) but I didn't make the comment that after that article was published that their would be a flooding of new members - that may or may not have been the intent of the article - but perhaps toward evangelism throughout Europe. I repeated and continually repeated information from that commentary - UNITY!

Met. Hilarion: An Alliance of Faith (Orthodox – Catholic Cooperation)
March 24, 2011 2:10 PM Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Select LanguageAfrikaansAlbanianArabicArmenianAzerbaijaniBasqueBelarusianBulgarianCatalanChinese (Simplified)Chinese (Traditional)CroatianCzechDanishDutchEnglishEstonianFilipinoFinnishFrenchGalicianGeorgianGermanGreekHaitian CreoleHebrewHindiHungarianIcelandicIndonesianIri[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]alianJapaneseKoreanLatvianLithuanianMacedonianMalayMalteseNorwegianPersianPolishPortugueseRomanianRussianSerbianSlovakSlovenianSpanishSwahiliSwedish ThaiTurkishUkrainianUrduVietnameseWelshYiddish

Pope Benedict meets Abp. Hilarion in Rome (file)
Highlight: Our challenges “…are first and foremost the challenges of a godless world, which is equally hostile today to Orthodox believers and Catholics, the challenge of the aggressive Islamic movement, the challenge of moral corruption, family decay, the abandonment by many people in traditionally Christian countries of the traditional family structure, liberalism in theology and morals, which is eroding the Christian community from within. We can respond to these, and a number of other challenges, together.”


“The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics– is an old idea of mine. It came to me when the Catholics were electing the new Pope. Although I would like to point out that what I am suggesting is, in essence, the direct opposite of Uniatism, which is a way toward a rapprochement based on doctrinal compromises. In our point of view, the policy of Uniatism had suffered complete failure. Not only did it not bring the Orthodox Christians and Catholics closer together, it actually distanced them. And Uniatism, as is currently recognized by both Orthodox believers and Catholics, is not the path toward unity.

THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT - UNITY AS I'VE EXPRESSED AND ALSO BACKED! - SO YES, ITS ABOUT LISTENING!

Also, I came into this thread with that joy of Christ - and to express my thanks and to give others the chance to read up on and also become familiar with both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic thought for Easter week. As much to my surprise - not all share. If this thread began with that joy, it ended with differences that "NOT" all members of either community share. Also, I would like to point out - that the "JOY" of Easter "and not "all" Suffering" is felt between both - as I've given you article "Out Of" each - both Greek and Syrian. So that the picture is painted differently than the one that had been posed - throughout. I have become "apart" of the Orthodox community for many years both Syrian (through cousins and friends) and also the Greek Orthodox community (again, out of friends of the family and through our relatives - and especially "HAVING" a relative as an ORTHODOX priest - on my father's side of the family)

Arsenios - no one wants to enter into suffering but into the "JOY" of reconnecting back to Christ - share in those moments and rejoice with those persons who find it, even though, they are Roman Catholics. Also, I know that the phrase "I mean, it sounds so.... Well... So Protestant..." - if that be so.....Arsenios, then I must be in good company with you! - as I think this was said "on another post" and also that thought "from another" was directed "well" ...your way!

Mitzi
Brother we may have differences - but let them "not" be so wide.

[George Blaisdell]

You and the Latin Church...

so are you saying that you have the authority to put someone back into the same prison that Christ just released them from?

Christ released men from the the authority of this world and the prison of sin...
Christ is our Head, and we are members of His Body...
The Pope is YOUR worldly authority over Christ's Body...
Christ is OUR Authority...

It is YOU who have placed us back into the same prison from which Christ released us...
You have [tried to] placed us back under human Papal authority...
We prefer martyrdom under the Moslems...

- If you read about Divine Mercy Sunday or Sunday of St. Thomas then you would have rejoiced with me brother - over the fact that someone had just received his grace and mercy - as this had been a real dry spell. You know, Arsenios, I read the news articles between the two hierarchies (Roman and Orthodox) but I didn't make the comment that after that article was published that their would be a flooding of new members - that may or may not have been the intent of the article - but perhaps toward evangelism throughout Europe. I repeated and continually repeated information from that commentary - UNITY!

THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT - UNITY AS I'VE EXPRESSED AND ALSO BACKED! - SO YES, ITS ABOUT LISTENING!

The article is about joining forces to evangellize a Godless Europe, initiated by Bp Hilarion... It is not about Communion, but as your own quoted words proclaim:

[box]"...the challenges of a godless world...
We can respond to these,
and a number of other challenges, together.
“The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics–
is an old idea of mine."[/box]

[Also, I came into this thread with that joy of Christ - and to express my thanks and to give others the chance to read up on and also become familiar with both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic thought for Easter week. As much to my surprise - not all share. If this thread began with that joy, it ended with differences that "NOT" all members of either community share. Also, I would like to point out - that the "JOY" of Easter "and not "all" Suffering" is felt between both - as I've given you article "Out Of" each - both Greek and Syrian. So that the picture is painted differently than the one that had been posed - throughout. I have become "apart" of the Orthodox community for many years both Syrian (through cousins and friends) and also the Greek Orthodox community (again, out of friends of the family and through our relatives - and especially "HAVING" a relative as an ORTHODOX priest - on my father's side of the family)

Arsenios - no one wants to enter into suffering but into the "JOY" of reconnecting back to Christ - share in those moments and rejoice with those persons who find it, even though, they are Roman Catholics. Also, I know that the phrase "I mean, it sounds so.... Well... So Protestant..." - if that be so.....Arsenios, then I must be in good company with you! - as I think this was said "on another post" and also that thought "from another" was directed "well" ...your way!

Mitzi
Brother we may have differences - but let them "not" be so wide.

The error I am addressing is your insistence on interpreting this meeting of Benedict and Hilarion as a harbinger of the NEW UNITY of the Orthodox with Latin Rome... My only point is that it is NOT about Communion, but is ONLY about a STRATEGIC ALLIANCE between TWO COMMUNIONS who are otherwise separate... To confront and try to HEAL the atheism of Europe, which used to be the Western Church of Latin Rome, Who lost Europe to atheism, and NOW Orthodoxy is trying to Give Rome a "LEG-UP" on the recovery of their apostacy, negligence and error...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

You and the Latin Church...



Christ released men from the the authority of this world and the prison of sin...
Christ is our Head, and we are members of His Body...
The Pope is YOUR worldly authority over Christ's Body...
Christ is OUR Authority...

It is YOU who have placed us back into the same prison from which Christ released us...
You have [tried to] placed us back under human Papal authority...
We prefer martyrdom under the Moslems...



The article is about joining forces to evangellize a Godless Europe, initiated by Bp Hilarion... It is not about Communion, but as your own quoted words proclaim:

[box]"...the challenges of a godless world...
We can respond to these,
and a number of other challenges, together.
“The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics–
is an old idea of mine."[/box]

[Also, I came into this thread with that joy of Christ - and to express my thanks and to give others the chance to read up on and also become familiar with both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic thought for Easter week. As much to my surprise - not all share. If this thread began with that joy, it ended with differences that "NOT" all members of either community share. Also, I would like to point out - that the "JOY" of Easter "and not "all" Suffering" is felt between both - as I've given you article "Out Of" each - both Greek and Syrian. So that the picture is painted differently than the one that had been posed - throughout. I have become "apart" of the Orthodox community for many years both Syrian (through cousins and friends) and also the Greek Orthodox community (again, out of friends of the family and through our relatives - and especially "HAVING" a relative as an ORTHODOX priest - on my father's side of the family)

Arsenios - no one wants to enter into suffering but into the "JOY" of reconnecting back to Christ - share in those moments and rejoice with those persons who find it, even though, they are Roman Catholics. Also, I know that the phrase "I mean, it sounds so.... Well... So Protestant..." - if that be so.....Arsenios, then I must be in good company with you! - as I think this was said "on another post" and also that thought "from another" was directed "well" ...your way!

Mitzi
Brother we may have differences - but let them "not" be so wide.

The error I am addressing is your insistence on interpreting this meeting of Benedict and Hilarion as a harbinger of the NEW UNITY of the Orthodox with Latin Rome... My only point is that it is NOT about Communion, but is ONLY about a STRATEGIC ALLIANCE between TWO COMMUNIONS who are otherwise separate... To confront and try to HEAL the atheism of Europe, which used to be the Western Church of Latin Rome, Who lost Europe to atheism, and NOW Orthodoxy is trying to Give Rome a "LEG-UP" on the recovery of their apostacy, negligence and error...

Arsenios[/QUOTE]

"Who is the Head of the Body of Christ on earth?"

You think it is Pope Benedict...

We knows it is Christ...

When you confess your error and repent from it...
There will be great rejoicing...
In the heavens and upon the earth.

No it was my insistence - I must apologize for my remark to you - "Who is the Head of the Body of Christ on earth?" You think it is Pope Benedict...

You would do well to concern yourself with your own leadership...
Ours is the Lord Jesus Christ, and we call upon Him for our help...

still not my insistence - but a reply back

I leave the question of Rome's rehabilitation to the Bishops and Patriarchs and God...
Christ is the Head of His Own Body on earth, the Church,
and not the Deacons, nor the Priests, nor the Bishops, nor the Patriarchs,
and certainly not the Pope...

The wreckage you see in the Middle East in her Christians is the result of Islamic persecutions...
The far worse wreckage you see in the west is the result of advanced spiritual cancer...

My last remarks - were on the fact that we're leaving it up to others to fix the problem - brother, I had only asked for prayers - is that an insistence!

We "all of us " draw from the one source - which is the Light of God, Jesus. I am saying, Arsenios, if we don't "LISTEN" to what these bishops and deacons and what they are telling us - than "HOW" can we draw the good! -

Also, we (you and I ) weren’t discussing the Palestinian Christians but about the people who are leaving those areas of the country that have “NO” choice but to leave. However, if we left the responsibilities up to “just” the “bishops and deacons" and left the congregation out of this – I said “what then?” - As this makes up the body of Christ – all members of the “Christian” community whether Orthodox or not we are made up in communion with Christ and also act as one body!

"Two brothers lived on two sides of a mountain. One was rich but had no children, one had many children but was very poor.

The rich brother thought, I have so much my brother has so little, let me secretly cross the mountain in the middle of the night and bring my brother extra crop. The poor brother said, I derive so much happiness from my children, let me secretly bring my brother some of my crop so he could have a little extra joy in this world.

And so it went every night each of the brothers secretly crossed the mountain to bring their brother food. Every morning the brothers would inspect their stock to learn nothing was missing. Neither could explain the phenomena but they thanked G- d for His kindness and continued in their good will.

After years of this routine a schedule change occurred. Instead of the two brothers missing each other in the night, there on top of the mountain the two brothers met. They looked at each other in surprise and then simultaneously realized what had been happening for all the years. They both spontaneously embraced one another there on top of the mountain as they cried for joy."

This is not insistence of what you feel or what I may feel about the article or what it is or isn't - and if you want to "voice" your opinion go right ahead - but freedoms goes both ways. Also, if I have to get down on my knees and pray because you feel that I'm in error, I will save you a space right next to me, I think it was your comments that flamed the discussion. Don't dodge the remarks - they've been rather loose.

The article is about members (or people) who have left "either" from our congregation or yours - or perhaps even it's about people who have come to know Christ - but are tired of the politics on both ends. Also, if you were interested in some views about the urgency and also why both churches are coming together, its because (and I'm sure your aware of this) of the decline numbers in participants - did you see any other congregation in that picture. But again, its not anyone's problem but the Catholics, so is that how your stating it - we'll leave up to the bishop, deacons and God and also as expressed.... "You would do well to concern yourself with your own leadership..." And you would do well to lighten up on the remarks - I didn't come insulting your side of the fence, now did I! This is Roman Catholic and "Eastern" Orthodox thread.

We knows it is Christ...

When you confess your error and repent from it...
There will be great rejoicing...
In the heavens and upon the earth.

Also, I came into this thread with that joy of Christ - and to express my thanks and to give others the chance to read up on and also become familiar with both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic thought for Easter week. As much to my surprise - not all share.

YES - I KNOW IT IS CHRIST! ARSENIOS I REALLY DON'T THINK I CAME TO INSULT ANYONE - NOR TO PUT DOWN YOUR PATH TO CHRIST - THE REMARKS YOU MADE WERE DEGRADING EVEN TO A WOMAN.

As a merely personal note, I was one of those who required "that kind of evidence even for God’s existence, "irrefutable" evidence making it impossible for man not to believe." So that I identify fully with Thomas... And in that identity, I would quibble with the Priest, in that I did not have to wait until the end of the Age to receive it... Like Thomas, who thrust his hand into the living and Life-giving wounds of the Flesh of our Lord, I am no longer able to not believe... I am to this day far too faithless... And yet in the Church I live by faith, for there was never, and never can be, until the end of the Age, the PHYSICAL proof... The real proof in this Age is the visitation of God in Person in the heart, as God... With that, even hardened atheists who have never read the Bible, like I was, are transformed...

So Arsenios - I don't think and I'm not really too sure about this, but Christ had healed even around the city of Jerusalem and spoke "I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day--for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!" - Christ is in creation 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

[George Blaisdell]

Arsenios -
no one wants to enter into suffering
but into the "JOY" of reconnecting back to Christ

My Dear...

Mat 7:14
"Because narrow is the gate,
and afflicted the Way,
which leadeth unto Life,
and few there be that find it."

IF one desires Life,
THEN one must embrace afflictions [sufferings] as the WAY to it,
IN ORDER THAT the narrow gate be entered...

When Paul preached the Cross, he preached suffering...
And in this suffering, he brought us Joy...
Not as the world gives...
But as Christ gives...
To the world...

Indeed, Christ Himself affirms the same:
IF anyone is willing
After Me to be following
Let him first deny himself
THEN TAKE UP HIS OWN CROSS DAILY
And be following Me...

The cross is an instrument of torture unto death, my Dear...

FEW indeed are they who find it as their Way to Life...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

My Dear...

Mat 7:14
"Because narrow is the gate,
and afflicted the Way,
which leadeth unto Life,
and few there be that find it."

IF one desires Life,
THEN one must embrace afflictions [sufferings] as the WAY to it,
IN ORDER THAT the narrow gate be entered...

When Paul preached the Cross, he preached suffering...
And in this suffering, he brought us Joy...
Not as the world gives...
But as Christ gives...
To the world...

Indeed, Christ Himself affirms the same:
IF anyone is willing
After Me to be following
Let him first deny himself
THEN TAKE UP HIS OWN CROSS DAILY
And be following Me...

The cross is an instrument of torture unto death, my Dear...

FEW indeed are they who find it as their Way to Life...

Arsenios

Hi Arsenios;

This was a ruff sailing conversation – however, I think, and I hope, that I understand the direction that you’re pointing toward about some of the differences between our two religions. Today, I spent some time looking through some Orthodox websites and also Catholic Orthodox (Eastern) websites and forums. Sometimes I think it would be “nice” to have priests who could converse in that open dialect between individual members of each community but we know that this is impossible. Members from each community, and I think, this has a lot to do with “open” communications – should (and I want to emphasize this point) be trained/educated formally not only about scripture but on open dialogue between Orthodox and Catholics – on Trinitarian issues and also a response to offices held – and their authority within, as I felt that this might be a reason for a decline – in attending church or even participation in a religious social environment. Arsenios – the position that they’re taking with each other might bring a change – throughout.

I think the beginnings with the Pope and the Bishop is a rather big step but also (and I would assume) that they (might have) felt that the need to address the decline of members (participants) was serious. Both the Pope and the Bishop took a responsible move toward good relations – and also I feel that it was the best move on both leaders of the two churches, as two brothers in Christ came to help each other – so this is where the church begins and is built with the establishment of understandings and reasoning's between the two. (edit - I'm sorry for the mishap sentence)

Presented are some articles that I think would be good for you to read:
• Roman Presidency and Christian Unity in our Time
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php
Fr. Thomas Hopko
Presented at the Woodstock Forum, September 25, 2005.
• Steps Towards A Reunited Church: A Sketch Of An Orthodox-Catholic Vision For The Future
http://www.scoba.us/articles/2855.html
Saturday, October 02, 2010

and also, The Unity of the Faith by David Barrett
http://www.ocanews.org/news/BarrettUnity10.19.10.html

and last:

What is the Church? - link is included in the title

1. The Church is the Assembly of the People of God for the celebration of the Mystery of the Divine Eucharist, wherein the local Church actually becomes and is revealed as the Body of Christ, as a Theandric organism, in which the Holy Trinity dwells.13

2. The visible center and head of the Eucharistic Assembly is the Bishop: It is he who leads the Assembly and preaches the word of God; it is he who offers the Eucharist, as an Icon of Christ, the Great High Priest, and as the one who presides in the place of God,14 according to St. Ignatios of Antioch.

3. In the early Church, only the Bishop offered the Divine Eucharist in each local Church; that is, there was only one Eucharist, and this was centered on the Bishop.14a

4. The Bishop, when he offers the Divine Eucharist, offers Christ in His wholeness, imparting the Holy Mysteries to the Faithful with his own hands; in ancient times, the People of God partook of Christ only from the living Icon of Christ, the Bishop.15

5. Therefore, the Bishop not only embodies the local Church, but also expresses in time and space the Catholic Church, that is, the whole Church; for that which embodies Christ in His wholeness, and wherein one receives Christ in His wholeness, is that which embodies the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Wherever Jesus Christ is, says St. Ignatios, there is the Catholic Church.16

6. For precisely this reason, when one is united with the Bishop in the Mystery of the Divine Eucharist, then he is also united with the Catholic Church. St. Cyprian of Carthage emphasizes this ecclesiological truth in the following striking terms: The Bishop is in the Church and the Church in the Bishop; and if one is not in communion with the Bishop, he is not in the Church.17"

In our conversation within these last couple of days – and having been steered into a direct that we (spoke) in opposition to each other – and I hope that you can see how it created a very tense atmosphere and perhaps drew in other comments (afar – unnecessarily - rather in a bullied and unnecessary way as to insist what others should and should not do). We may hold our differences from the perspective of each other’s religious affiliations, however – advice, at this point, should “not” be given outside of our own realm nor advocated as a remedy – without the understanding and respective of each person. What I mean to say is that, you have ties that are very close to “how” Eastern Orthodox may pursue a direction that might be different from the years of religious change (?) or have come to change through my own church affiliation. I wrote to you about my upbringing years ago, we (my family) are semi Orthodox in our views today – over the years, like being observant – and without that guidance, can develop more into unorthodox ways – that came through the years, and as this can happen. Years ago, like 21 years ago, I worked with two people who were considered to be the Greeky Greeks – and then there are the Greeks, as I’ve been told by other Greeks. So now you have the Orthodox members (observant – strict conservative) and then there are non conservation Orthodox. In all, I dearly love those friends and family member who been raised Orthodox – but we have grown to understand each other throughout years of growing up together– I’ve continually have the up most respect and high regards for them, however, I don’t take to their occasional nonsense – albeit - the arguments between family, and I’ll leave the remarks right at the foot of the door, but I think since you’ve converted to Orthodoxy – family is family. But I have a feeling, that my uncle would loved your thoughts – however, this suffering is a subject that we differ - suffering is the cause from our own sins that we must purge out from our lives to reconcile back to God through Jesus Christ – that being by His Crucifixion, it is purification to the soul. A good example of suffering was King David:

After David's sin, the Lord sent him Nathan the prophet to confront him. (See II Samuel 12). Instead of denial or excuses, David comes clean; "I have sinned against the Lord." (2 Samuel 12:13) But if that was all we were told about the incident we would have no idea about the depth of the repentance that David felt. Fortunately we have Psalm 51 which is a soul poured out before the Lord with great transparency and brokenness of spirit.

Psalm 51 is marked by true characteristics of repentance such as:

* Appeal to the mercy of God
* Honesty
* Understanding of the severity of sinning against God
* No excuses or justification
* Desire to reform
* Recognition that forgiveness is not deserved but by grace alone

In verse 2 David asks God to do three things. First he asks that his sin be blotted out which speaks of human records which can be erased. Then he asks to be washed thoroughly which compares forgiveness to the washing of clothes and clothes were often seen as an extension of the person. Finally he asks to be cleansed from his sin and this refers to liturgical ceremonial law. David wished to be separated from his sin in every way possible. He is not clinging to it with secret affection for it. No, he is rejecting his sin to the uttermost.

(LINK)

In his prayer, David acknowledges his sin "nature" and he holds out no hope that on his own he will be able to avoid sin in the future. He doesn't do this as an excuse, "Gee, I'm only human" but as an expression of his brokenness and his need for God's help and delivering power. David puts the burden of redemption on God: "purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow." (verse 7) He is willing and desirous to submit to this deep cleansing of his innermost being. LINK

So this is suffering – fortunately as scripture says we have a “Great” High Priest who offers prayers and also Jesus intercedes on our behalf at the throne of God (see book of Tobit 12:12-15), “great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.”

Now there is a difference type of suffering – and one that I wanted to especially point out (a little more). There are people who suffer because of their own sinful nature (on their own merit) but there’s another kind of suffering that isn’t caused by what someone does but what others cause them to do – sometimes by authorities – unjust laws toward different religious movements, sometimes these laws, as unjust as they maybe, will cause members to think otherwise on whether or not that faith and belief will be tested – or to cause suffering in hunger or to not obtain jobs – this is (to me) suffering in silence. There is prayer that I had called upon – and it’s Esther and Mordecai prayers. In the prayer it states:

A copy of a letter sent by Aman to destroy the Jews. Mardochai's prayer for the people.

1 And this was the copy of the letter: Artaxerxes the great king who reigneth from India to Ethiopia, to the princes and governors of the hundred and twenty-seven provinces, that are subject to his empire, greeting. 2 Whereas I reigned over many nations, and had brought all the world under my dominion, I was not willing to abuse the greatness of my power, but to govern my subjects with clemency and lenity, that they might live quietly without any terror. and might enjoy peace, which is desired by all men. 3 But when I asked my counsellors how this might be accomplished, one that excelled the rest in wisdom and fidelity, and was second after the king, Aman by name, 4 Told me that there was a people scattered through the whole world, which used new laws, and acted against the customs of all nations, despised the commandments of kings, and violated by their opposition the concord of all nations. 5 Wherefore having learned this, and seeing one nation in opposition to all mankind using perverse laws, and going against our commandments, and disturbing the peace and concord of the provinces subject to us,

6 We have commanded that all whom Aman shall mark out, who is chief over all the provinces, and second after the king, and whom we honour as a father, shall be utterly destroyed by their enemies, with their wives and children, and that none shall have pity on them. on the fourteenth day of the twelfth month Adar of this present year: 7 That these wicked men going down to hell in one day, may restore to our empire the peace which they had disturbed. 8 But Mardochai besought the Lord, remembering all his works, 9 And said: O Lord, Lord, almighty king, for all things are in thy power, and there is none that can resist thy will, if thou determine to save Israel. 10 Thou hast made heaven and earth, and all things that are under the cope of heaven.

11 Thou art Lord of all, and there is none that can resist thy majesty. 12 Thou knowest all things, and thou knowest that it was not out of pride and contempt, or any desire of glory, that I refused to worship the proud Aman, 13 (For I would willingly and readily for the salvation of Israel have kissed even the steps of his feet,) 14 But I feared lest I should transfer the honour of my God to a man, and lest I should adore any one except my God. 15 And now, O Lord, O king, O God of Abraham, have mercy on thy people, because our enemies resolve to destroy us, and extinguish thy inheritance.

16 Despise not thy portion, which thou hast redeemed for thyself out of Egypt. 17 Hear my supplication, and be merciful to thy lot and inheritance, and turn our mourning into joy, that we may live and praise thy name, O Lord, and shut not the mouths of them that sing to thee. 18 And all Israel with like mind and supplication cried to the Lord, because they saw certain death hanging over their heads.
Book Of Esther

[mitzi]

My Dear...

Mat 7:14
"Because narrow is the gate,
and afflicted the Way,
which leadeth unto Life,
and few there be that find it."

IF one desires Life,
THEN one must embrace afflictions [sufferings] as the WAY to it,
IN ORDER THAT the narrow gate be entered...

When Paul preached the Cross, he preached suffering...
And in this suffering, he brought us Joy...
Not as the world gives...
But as Christ gives...
To the world...

Indeed, Christ Himself affirms the same:
IF anyone is willing
After Me to be following
Let him first deny himself
THEN TAKE UP HIS OWN CROSS DAILY
And be following Me...

The cross is an instrument of torture unto death, my Dear...

FEW indeed are they who find it as their Way to Life...

Arsenios

I hope the last post will not cause any harm to the relationship that I grown to cherish throughout my years of posting on this board - we differ greatly however, as there have been the number of years that have washed away of "what" seemed to be an Orthodox (Christian) up bringing will take (and I hope - not years) to achieve back as I look to Jesus with the confidence of restoring. This is a small hurtle (step) on Divine Mercy Sunday - and one that I had anticipated with long awaited hope. Reconciling with Christ and living a good life was my prayer - now comes the hard work and with Jesus all things are possible - what might seem difficult for me to endure will not be for Christ.

John 4:10 - 14 "10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.” 11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?" 13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

and, John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

[George Blaisdell]

My Dear Mitzi -

On the issue of willful suffering...

You need only answer three questions:

Did Christ suffer willingly?

Did He Sin?

Are we to follow Christ?

Arsenios

[mitzi]

My Dear Mitzi -

On the issue of willful suffering...

You need only answer three questions:

Did Christ suffer willingly?

Did He Sin?

Are we to follow Christ?

Arsenios

Hi Arsenios;

We are to be remain faithful to Christ - and in that faithfulness we do suffer as we long for the day of His return. In our challenges and struggles that we face today, as evil does exist in the world and it does exit in abundance, it is within these struggles that we find consolation (comfort) with Jesus (who has overcome the world John 16:33, "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." and in - Matthew 11:28 ""Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." and Jeremiah 30: 8 “ ‘In that day,’ declares the Lord Almighty, I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds;no longer will foreigners enslave them. 9 Instead, they will serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.") Christ continues to help us endure whatever pains and suffering that comes our way. We couldn't handle continual suffering (pain) on a everyday basis - this would not only break our strength but also our spirit. Prayer is a way for us to communicate with God and with the Son - in order for us to receive His grace and mercy, "Our Father in heaven, give us this day our daily bread."

Arsenios, The hour of glory for Jesus is his passion and death because when he was lifted up from from the earth he drew all men (believers) to himself (John 12:32 and John 17:20-26 "26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”). Although he was Son, he learnt to obey through suffering; but having been made perfect, he became for all who obey him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb 5:8-9). We read this (rest) from our suffering within
Genesis with Noah's -

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

"And he called his name Noah,.... Which signifies rest and comfort; for rest gives comfort, and comfort flows from rest, see 2 Samuel 14:17, where a word from the same root is rendered "comfortable", and agrees with the reason of the name, as follows:

saying, this same shall comfort us, concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground, which the Lord hath cursed; this he spake by a spirit of prophecy, foreseeing what his son would be, and of what advantage to him and his family, and to the world, both in things temporal and spiritual. In things temporal: the earth was cursed for the sin of man immediately after the fall, and continued under it to this time, bringing forth thorns and thistles in great abundance of itself, which occasioned much trouble to root and pluck them up, and nothing else, without digging, and planting, and sowing; and being barren through the curse, it was with great difficulty men got a livelihood: now Noah eased them in a good measure of their toil and trouble, by inventing instruments of ploughing, as Jarchi suggests, which they had not before, but threw up the ground with their hands, and by the use of spades, or such like things, which was very laborious; but now, by the use of the plough, and beasts to draw it, their lives were made much more easy and comfortable; hence he is said to begin to be an "husbandman", or a "man of the earth", that brought agriculture to a greater perfection, having found out an easier and quicker manner of tilling the earth: and as he was the first that is said to plant a vineyard, if he was the inventor of wine, this was another way in which he was an instrument of giving refreshment and comfort to men, that being what cheers the heart of God and men, see Genesis 9:20 and if the antediluvians were restrained from eating of flesh, and their diet was confined to the fruits of the earth; Noah, as Dr. Lightfoot (d) observes, would be a comfort in reference to this, because to him, and in him to all the world, God would give liberty to eat flesh; so that they were not obliged to get their whole livelihood with their hands out of the ground: and moreover, as Lamech might be apprised of the flood by the name of his father, and the prediction of his grandfather, he might foresee that he and his family would be saved, and be the restorer of the world, and repeople it, after the destruction of it by the flood. And he may have respect to comfort in spiritual things, either at first taking him to be the promised seed, the Messiah, in whom all comfort is; or however a type of him, and from whom he should spring, who would deliver them from the curse of the law, and from the bondage of it, and from toiling and seeking for a righteousness by the works of it; or he might foresee that he would be a good man, and a preacher of righteousness, and be a public good in his day and generation.

(d) Works, vol. 1. p. 9."

[mitzi]

My Dear Mitzi -

On the issue of willful suffering...

You need only answer three questions:

Did Christ suffer willingly?

Did He Sin?

Are we to follow Christ?

Arsenios

Expositions of Holy Scripture
Alexander Maclaren
THE BOOK OF ESTHER
MORDECAI AND ESTHER

"O my LORD, you only are our king; help me, who am alone and have no helper but you, for my danger is in my hand. Ever since I was born I have heard in the tribe of my family that you , O LORD, took Israel out of all the nations, and our ancestors from among all their forebears, for an everlasting inheritance, and that you did for them all that you promised. And now we have sinned before you, and you have handed us over to our enemies, because we glorified their gods. You are are righteous, O LORD! And now they are not satisfied that we are in bitter slavery, but they have covenanted with their idols to abolish what your mouth has ordained, and to destroy your inheritance, to stop the mouths of those who praise you and to quench your altar and the glory of your house, to open the mouths of the nations for the praise of vain idols, and to magnify forever a mortal king." O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being; and do not let them laugh at our downfall; but turn their plan against them, and make an example of him who began this against us. "Remember, O LORD; make yourself known in this time of our affliction, and give me courage, O King of the gods and Master of all dominion!"

As you read the article - and pointing out a couple of thoughts:

Esther calls upon the Lord to help her people -
Esther prays for the safety and deliverance of her people -
In the prayer, it states that is wasn't good enough that they are in bitter slavery - but now they want to do more... as to make them suffer

Again, being faithful to God isn't easy especially when there are those who try to make our life as miserable as they can - as to cause us to lose faith in God. Suffering and to much suffering is the embitterment of slavery or in bondage. Jesus Christ - released us from our bondage and paid a price. The price Christ paid was the cross and the "joy" we become to know is in the resurrection - as He is no longer of this world but has overcome it. As Paul the Apostle said "we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[f] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Peace
Mitzi

[George Blaisdell]

O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being;
"Remember, O LORD;
make yourself known in this time of our affliction,
and give me courage, O King of the gods and Master of all dominion!"

As you read the article - and pointing out a couple of thoughts:

Esther calls upon the Lord to help her people -
Esther prays for the safety and deliverance of her people -
In the prayer, it states that is wasn't good enough that they are in bitter slavery -
but now they want to do more...
as to make them suffer

For the purpose of getting God to surrender His Scepter...

Suffering and to much suffering is the embitterment of slavery or in bondage. Jesus Christ - released us from our bondage and paid a price. The price Christ paid was the cross and the "joy" we become to know is in the resurrection - as He is no longer of this world but has overcome it. As Paul the Apostle said "we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[f] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Yes, Christ paid, on the Holy Cross, for our salvation...

And EACH of us is to FOLLOW HIM...

If you scorn suffering, you scorn your own salvation...

Lazarus was saved...

The Rich Man
who scorned the suffering of Lazarus,
was condemned to tormennts...

Not because he scorned Lazarus,
but because he scorned suffering...


There has never been a worldly prosperity Gospel...

We proclaim Christ,
And Him Crucified...

And in following Him...
We enter into His Joy...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

For the purpose of getting God to surrender His Scepter...



Yes, Christ paid, on the Holy Cross, for our salvation...

And EACH of us is to FOLLOW HIM...

If you scorn suffering, you scorn your own salvation...

Lazarus was saved...

The Rich Man
who scorned the suffering of Lazarus,
was condemned to tormennts...

Not because he scorned Lazarus,
but because he scorned suffering...


There has never been a worldly prosperity Gospel...

We proclaim Christ,
And Him Crucified...

And in following Him...
We enter into His Joy...

Arsenios

O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being;
"Remember, O LORD;
make yourself known in this time of our affliction,
and give me courage, O King of the gods and Master of all dominion!"

Esther and Mordecai prayers - turn, repent, prudence in choosing the right way, listening to God. Remembering these words during the Liturgical Season so well. (Mordecai cried bitterly, rent his clothes, and put on sackcloth, v. 1, 2. ) Esther 4

"O LORD, do not surrender your scepter to what has no being" - So as to deliver us from what has "no" being (our own self pleasure in life - we didn't put God first in our lives) - It is an out pour that we return back to God through Christ.