Believing Thomas

[apostoli]

Hello barley,

Their viewpoint is erroneous.

Indeed the Jews misunderstood Jesus when they said "you make yourself God", just as you misunderstand Jesus when he says he is the Son of God. Jesus cites Ps 82:6, where scripture calls the unrighteous rulers/judges of earth gods. Ps 82 is somewhat prophetic, notice vs1 "God...judgeth among the gods, then the criticism of these "gods" and the finale at vs8 "Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations". Once again I ask you: Who is it that the NT says is our judge, and who does the NT say will inherit all things?

Jesus Christ had only as much power as the Father authorized him to have. It was a lot of power, but it was limited. God and Jesus Christ have a inseparable relationship. Jesus Christ decided that is what he wanted, and he did it. Jesus Christ had more or less free will than any other human... One aspect of his uniqueness is his total commitment to do the will of the Father over his own.

I noticed you haven't appealed to scripture in your response, merely prattled on with your idle speculations.

Jesus Christ is perceived by most Christian as the perfect Son of the Father, and so when we perceive the Son we perceive the Father (Jn 12:45; 14:9; Heb 1:3), so some of what you say has a ring of true about it. However, scripture clearly states, in fact Jesus clearly states, that all the Father has, so the Son (Jn 16:15), so there is no limit to his power. In fact it is he that directly provides us with salvation and the promise of eternal life (Jn 6:47).

They definitely had a tight relationship and as Jesus Christ explained a few moments later, that is because he is the son of God. Wow! How tight a relationship do you want and are willing to work at to have a tight relationship with God, as a son of God?

We are sons by adoption, Jesus is unique, the monogenus huios, the only natural Son of God (Jn 3:16) that has the precise imprint of his Father's personal existence (Heb 1:3) and is the only "man" that has seen God and made him manifest (Jn 1:18; 6:46).

Thinking back to your interpretation of Jn 8:40, Jn 6:46 shows your blindness. Jesus says "no man has seen God". if one used your illogic, then they'd come to the conclusion that Jesus isn't a man as here and elsewhere he claims to have seen the Father. Of course we know from the NT that he was a man = the Logos made flesh (Jn 1:14-18), born of a woman (Gal 4:4), who because those he came to save are "partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same" (Heb 2:14-17; Phil 2:6-8).

That is right. He is a begotten son of God. He had a beginning just as all sons have a beginning. Matthew 1:18

You do realise your view has equivalence to the pagan conception of the gods inseminating women to conceive, either that or you hold that Jesus is only son by adoption and is not truely monogenus huios, the only natural Son of God.

A shepherd is a pastor. Would it, or should it surprise anyone that Jesus Christ chose to follow in His Father's works to be a pastor, a shepherd to God's people. One of the great attributes that many men of God in the Old Testament had , was that they were shepherds as well. It is a wonderful background to have done well if you are planning to take care of God's people.

Nice attempt in side steping. In the OT YHWH is described as the shepherd of his chosen people, in the NT Jesus puts himself in the role of YHWH. He doesn't depict himself as a hireling, but as the owner of the flock, who would lay down his life for them (Jn 10).

Peace

[barley]

Hello barley,

Indeed the Jews misunderstood Jesus when they said "you make yourself God", just as you misunderstand Jesus when he says he is the Son of God. Jesus cites Ps 82:6, where scripture calls the unrighteous rulers/judges of earth gods. Ps 82 is somewhat prophetic, notice vs1 "God...judgeth among the gods, then the criticism of these "gods" and the finale at vs8 "Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations". Once again I ask you: Who is it that the NT says is our judge, and who does the NT say will inherit all things?

I noticed you haven't appealed to scripture in your response, merely prattled on with your idle speculations.

Jesus Christ is perceived by most Christian as the perfect Son of the Father, and so when we perceive the Son we perceive the Father (Jn 12:45; 14:9; Heb 1:3), so some of what you say has a ring of true about it. However, scripture clearly states, in fact Jesus clearly states, that all the Father has, so the Son (Jn 16:15), so there is no limit to his power. In fact it is he that directly provides us with salvation and the promise of eternal life (Jn 6:47).

We are sons by adoption, Jesus is unique, the monogenus huios, the only natural Son of God (Jn 3:16) that has the precise imprint of his Father's personal existence (Heb 1:3) and is the only "man" that has seen God and made him manifest (Jn 1:18; 6:46).

Thinking back to your interpretation of Jn 8:40, Jn 6:46 shows your blindness. Jesus says "no man has seen God". if one used your illogic, then they'd come to the conclusion that Jesus isn't a man as here and elsewhere he claims to have seen the Father. Of course we know from the NT that he was a man = the Logos made flesh (Jn 1:14-18), born of a woman (Gal 4:4), who because those he came to save are "partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same" (Heb 2:14-17; Phil 2:6-8).

You do realise your view has equivalence to the pagan conception of the gods inseminating women to conceive, either that or you hold that Jesus is only son by adoption and is not truely monogenus huios, the only natural Son of God.

Nice attempt in side steping. In the OT YHWH is described as the shepherd of his chosen people, in the NT Jesus puts himself in the role of YHWH. He doesn't depict himself as a hireling, but as the owner of the flock, who would lay down his life for them (Jn 10).

Peace

Indeed the Jews misunderstood Jesus when they said "you make yourself God", just as you misunderstand Jesus when he says he is the Son of God. Jesus cites Ps 82:6, where scripture calls the unrighteous rulers/judges of earth gods.


If you will read Psalm 82 more carefully, you would see that it is instructional. See verses 2-5. God makes it clear that they have missed the mark, and reminds them of what that mark is. Then God repeats in verse 6, their title from verse 1, in that He calls them gods. He reminds them that although they are gods, they are human and will die...So do your job according to My standards, My Word. Yes, they were unrighteous in those categories where God points out their errors, but God also gives them the instruction on how to correct their error. God did not give up on them.

Ps 82 is somewhat prophetic, notice vs1 "God...judgeth among the gods, then the criticism of these "gods" "


I will let this slide until you learn what I have given you above. When you see that this Psalm is instructional then it may not be necessary to correct your other thinking.

and the finale at vs8 "Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations

Who is God telling to arise and judge the earth? Is He telling Himself? Is He telling another God? Is He telling another god? Is He referring tto the meek which shall inherit the earth?

Once again I ask you: Who is it that the NT says is our judge,

Let's look some up. Are you ready? Are you sitting down? Do you have your cup of coffee?

Luke 12:14 Jesus Christ is not the judge here.

Matthew 12:27 and Luke 11:19 if you fit in the category given in the context, then your sons will judge you.

In Acts 10:42 we learn that God has ordained Jesus Christ to be the judge of the quick and the dead. This of course is the same Jesus Christ referred to in Acts 10:38 who God anointed with holy ghost and with power. God had to anoint him with holy spirit and with power because he did not have it for a long time. When did this anointing occur? At his baptism by John.
Until this anointing Jesus Christ did not have holy spirit or power, that is why God had to anoint him with it.

In II Timothy 4:8 Jesus Christ is the righteous judge. How? See John 5:30

In Hebrews 12:23 we learn that God is the judge of all. Jesus Christ was appointed to judge a few things, as we see above, but God is the judge of all. See John 5:30.

In I Corinthians 2:15, we learn that people who are spiritual judges all things. Wait a minute, Hebrews says God is the judge of all. but here we see that spiritual people judge all things.
How do you explain that?

I Corinthians 4:3 It says here that it is a little thing if I am judged of you. The lord is my judge.

I Corinthians 14:24 when prophecy is given in the church, then the unlearned is judged by all. Do you have people who manifest prophecy in your congregation?

I Corinthians 6:5 teaches that there is supposed to be believers mature enough to be able to judge between the brethren... I have many friends that can fill those requirements.

I Corinthians 11:31 exhorts us to judge ourselves. don't you think that the written word is the standard by which we should judge ourselves?

I Corinthians 14:29 prophets are to judge what other prophets speak forth by revelation. that is really cool. They help each other stay clear and sharp on scripture so that they can help others stay clear and sharp on scripture.

Why did Jesus Christ teach in the gospels to "judge not lest ye be judged"? It is very plain and clear that in the epistles we are required to judge. Was there some event or series of events between JC teaching that and the giving of the epistles?

there is a lot more scripture that could be searched out. I didn't go through half of them.

Who do you say that is our judge?

Or as the scriptures teach there are many who are qualified to judge?

Is that enough scripture for you? You had no idea. or you ignored it all, or you really don't care.


and who does the NT say will inherit all things?

May be you can do yourself the favor of grabbing a concordance and looking it up for yourself. I am sure that it would be very instructional for you to do so.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Barley could be taken seriously if he actually understood the worldview he argues against.

His objections are those of one who has not even done basic reading in Trinitarian thought.

[Catholicity]

I tend to agree AP. The issue I have here, is that Barley argues the same things repeatedly. Its like my 3 year old watching the same disney movie over and over and over again until I can quote it. (except disney movies are funnier, and seem to be on a higher level of understanding...Barley I would say needs to start with a barney video watch it over and over and over again, then move up to Elmo's world...then to Sesame Street...you get the idea) Spitting out Scripture is NOT the same thing as understanding it. I can quote double meanings of Dory from Finding Nemo all day, but unless I get it, its totally meaningless.

[barley]

Barley could be taken seriously if he actually understood the worldview he argues against.

His objections are those of one who has not even done basic reading in Trinitarian thought.

You got something to say to me?

You could address me directly.

Of course, that would take courage.

Do you have any?

Evidently not enough to address me directly.

You are very skilled at beating around the bush.

Pray for boldness to speak God's word accurately. Acts 4:24-31.

See also Matthew 21:22, if you have the courage to go to God with this prayer, make sure you believe that God will answer.

It will be a wonderful blessing for you to get the answer to this prayer.

[barley]

I tend to agree AP. The issue I have here, is that Barley argues the same things repeatedly. Its like my 3 year old watching the same disney movie over and over and over again until I can quote it. (except disney movies are funnier, and seem to be on a higher level of understanding...Barley I would say needs to start with a barney video watch it over and over and over again, then move up to Elmo's world...then to Sesame Street...you get the idea) Spitting out Scripture is NOT the same thing as understanding it. I can quote double meanings of Dory from Finding Nemo all day, but unless I get it, its totally meaningless.

You got something to say to me?

You could address me directly.

Of course, that would take courage.

Do you have any?

Evidently not enough to address me directly.

You are very skilled at beating around the bush.

Pray for boldness to speak God's word accurately. Acts 4:24-31.

See also Matthew 21:22, if you have the courage to go to God with this prayer, make sure you believe that God will answer.

It will be a wonderful blessing for you to get the answer to this prayer.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

You got something to say to me?

Nothing I haven't said in other posts.

You could address me directly.

I did. http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...5&postcount=36

Do note how I pointed out you ignored much of what I have to say, meaning you do not interact with responses, how you create straw men that aren't what I believe, and how you really need to learn something about Christian Theology before you argue against it.

Of course, that would take courage.

Do you have any?

Yep. That's why I did.

Evidently not enough to address me directly.

I did. You just ignored it in the last thread.

You are very skilled at beating around the bush.

No. I have skill at beating down ideas of those who are ignorant of basic Christian doctrine. I challenge anyone to go to the other thread I put a link to a post to from and see how little you interacted with me and how much you ignored of my responses.

Pray for boldness to speak God's word accurately. Acts 4:24-31.

See also Matthew 21:22, if you have the courage to go to God with this prayer, make sure you believe that God will answer.

It will be a wonderful blessing for you to get the answer to this prayer.

Hey. If you think you've got what it takes, you can face me any time one-on-one on if orthodox Christology is true or not. If you've got the guts, go ahead. You accuse me of not having courage. Let's see if you have any.

[Catholicity]

hey listen up...I've addressed you directly a number of times yet you refuse to answer, If I agree with AP, then I can address him not you GOT IT? What REgligion are you anyway...Gnostic? Russellite? lets start with that maybe we can deprogram you

[apostoli]

Indeed the Jews misunderstood Jesus when they said "you make yourself God", just as you misunderstand Jesus when he says he is the Son of God. Jesus cites Ps 82:6, where scripture calls the unrighteous rulers/judges of earth gods.


If you will read Psalm 82 more carefully, you would see that it is instructional. See verses 2-5. God makes it clear that they have missed the mark, and reminds them of what that mark is. Then God repeats in verse 6, their title from verse 1, in that He calls them gods. He reminds them that although they are gods, they are human and will die...So do your job according to My standards, My Word. Yes, they were unrighteous in those categories where God points out their errors, but God also gives them the instruction on how to correct their error. God did not give up on them.

Ps 82 is somewhat prophetic, notice vs1 "God...judgeth among the gods, then the criticism of these "gods" "


I will let this slide until you learn what I have given you above. When you see that this Psalm is instructional then it may not be necessary to correct your other thinking.

and the finale at vs8 "Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations

Who is God telling to arise and judge the earth? Is He telling Himself? Is He telling another God? Is He telling another god? Is He referring tto the meek which shall inherit the earth?

Once again I ask you: Who is it that the NT says is our judge,

Let's look some up. Are you ready? Are you sitting down? Do you have your cup of coffee?

Luke 12:14 Jesus Christ is not the judge here.

Matthew 12:27 and Luke 11:19 if you fit in the category given in the context, then your sons will judge you.

In Acts 10:42 we learn that God has ordained Jesus Christ to be the judge of the quick and the dead. This of course is the same Jesus Christ referred to in Acts 10:38 who God anointed with holy ghost and with power. God had to anoint him with holy spirit and with power because he did not have it for a long time. When did this anointing occur? At his baptism by John.
Until this anointing Jesus Christ did not have holy spirit or power, that is why God had to anoint him with it.

In II Timothy 4:8 Jesus Christ is the righteous judge. How? See John 5:30

In Hebrews 12:23 we learn that God is the judge of all. Jesus Christ was appointed to judge a few things, as we see above, but God is the judge of all. See John 5:30.

In I Corinthians 2:15, we learn that people who are spiritual judges all things. Wait a minute, Hebrews says God is the judge of all. but here we see that spiritual people judge all things.
How do you explain that?

I Corinthians 4:3 It says here that it is a little thing if I am judged of you. The lord is my judge.

I Corinthians 14:24 when prophecy is given in the church, then the unlearned is judged by all. Do you have people who manifest prophecy in your congregation?

I Corinthians 6:5 teaches that there is supposed to be believers mature enough to be able to judge between the brethren... I have many friends that can fill those requirements.

I Corinthians 11:31 exhorts us to judge ourselves. don't you think that the written word is the standard by which we should judge ourselves?

I Corinthians 14:29 prophets are to judge what other prophets speak forth by revelation. that is really cool. They help each other stay clear and sharp on scripture so that they can help others stay clear and sharp on scripture.

Why did Jesus Christ teach in the gospels to "judge not lest ye be judged"? It is very plain and clear that in the epistles we are required to judge. Was there some event or series of events between JC teaching that and the giving of the epistles?

there is a lot more scripture that could be searched out. I didn't go through half of them.

Who do you say that is our judge?

Or as the scriptures teach there are many who are qualified to judge?

Is that enough scripture for you? You had no idea. or you ignored it all, or you really don't care.


and who does the NT say will inherit all things?

May be you can do yourself the favor of grabbing a concordance and looking it up for yourself. I am sure that it would be very instructional for you to do so.

It seems you are ignorant of the verb and noun forms of the 6 greek words translated judge.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Since I see Barley is back, I hope he'll reply here since he seemed to think I lack courage.

Or maybe he doesn't have the courage to do so.

[Sparko]

what I don't get about people like Barley is that they say they believe in one God and they claim Jesus is the Son of God. If I have a son, he is the same species I am, human. So wouldn't the son of a God be a God too? and then wouldn't you have TWO Gods?

Unless you have the trinity, you end up with polytheism.

[barley]

Since I see Barley is back, I hope he'll reply here since he seemed to think I lack courage.

Or maybe he doesn't have the courage to do so.

Am I barley? I am. Am I here? I am. Am I replying to you? I am.

Hey, I am. what does that make me?

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Am I barley? I am. Am I here? I am. Am I replying to you? I am.

Hey, I am. what does that make me?

Someone who should realize their bluff was called when I was accused of cowardice on similar grounds. I've answered you before. You've never dialogued. Go ahead. Give your best objection and see how long it lasts.

[barley]

what I don't get about people like Barley is that they say they believe in one God and they claim Jesus is the Son of God. If I have a son, he is the same species I am, human. So wouldn't the son of a God be a God too? and then wouldn't you have TWO Gods?

Unless you have the trinity, you end up with polytheism.

I know. Since God is spirit and God is invisible. It would certainly be within God''s right to have a son that is also spirit and invisible. However, God's love to man was the deciding factor to have a son that is human. Would I want a son that is a chimp? No. Neither would you. God, out of His love for us, had a perfect human son, that would redeem mankind. Philippians 2:5-11, especially verses 6-8 speak loudly of this.

And then not only so, but God gave humankind the opportunity to become sons of God. I John 3:1-2.

John 3:16, God so loved the world.

[barley]

I am glad you have the courage to speak to me directly.

I see that you intend to be married soon.

Speaking to your fiance through a third party is not conducive to a good marriage, as I am sure you well recognize. I am glad that my concerns for the future of your marriage were solved.

continue in that courage.