Are You A Good Man....

[Zymologist]

Granting full rights and protections to an embryo/fetus without a functioning brain, makes no sense and it’s not something most cultures in history have done...including the Judaism of Jesus' time.



No, according to the statistics most support for the pro-life stance comes from Religious groups, which suggests that religious beliefs play a role.

So you understand their religious beliefs better than they do? I remind you of what you said to seer a few days ago:

And I find it extraordinary that you have the arrogance to tell shunya what he should be believing about his own faith when it is his belief system not yours.

[rogue06]

So you understand their religious beliefs better than they do? I remind you of what you said to seer a few days ago:

And I find it extraordinary that you have the arrogance to tell shunya what he should be believing about his own faith when it is his belief system not yours.

Pfff. That's obviously for other people.

[DesertBerean]

This puzzles me: Do you know you are lying here, or are you literally that stupid and that ignorant that you think you're telling the truth? Even an average person who'd spent 5 minutes studying the abortion debates would know this was totally untrue, so I don't understand what you think you are gaining by making statements that absolutely everyone knows are false and wrong.

That statement is much more on-point and at least shows a rudimentary grasp of the issues on your part.

And we're back to you making statements that everyone knows are ridiculously false. Are you that stupid, or are you deliberately lying and if so, why?

Wow, that random claim came out of left-field.

Moderated By: DesertBerean

In the midst of this very heated discussion, we find we need to remind not just Starlight but everyone else that only one unsubstantiated accusation of lying is permitted. Starlight, be prepared to back up any further accusation.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

[Tassman]

So you understand their religious beliefs better than they do?

I’m going by Pew Research Statistics, whereby ALL religious groups view abortion morally unacceptable, notably ‘White Evangelicals’ at 76%, in comparison to merely 23% of religiously unaffiliated who don’t. This suggests that religious beliefs play a role.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...bout-abortion/

I remind you of what you said to seer a few days ago:

Unlike seer re shunya, I am not laying down the law about what people believe merely suggesting a likely correlation.

[Zymologist]

I’m going by Pew Research Statistics, whereby ALL religious groups view abortion morally unacceptable, notably ‘White Evangelicals’ at 76%, in comparison to merely 23% of religiously unaffiliated who don’t. This suggests that religious beliefs play a role.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...bout-abortion/



Unlike seer re shunya, I am not laying down the law about what people believe merely suggesting a likely correlation.

A correlation that many of them have explicitly told you is wrong, repeatedly. So again: do you think you know what religious people believe better than they do?

[Tassman]

A correlation that many of them have explicitly told you is wrong, repeatedly. So again: do you think you know what religious people believe better than they do?

I’m not saying it is necessarily “right”, merely suggesting that the statistics indicate that religion plays a big role in how the faithful view abortion. Namely, ALL religious groups view abortion as morally unacceptable, notably ‘White Evangelicals’ at 76%, in comparison to merely 23% of religiously unaffiliated who don’t. What do these statistics tell you?

[Doug Shaver]

Namely, ALL religious groups view abortion as morally unacceptable, notably ‘White Evangelicals’ at 76%

So, 76% of white evangelicals oppose abortion, and from that, you infer that "all religious groups" oppose abortion?

Do you have any idea how many religious groups there are that are very, very different from white evangelicals?

[Starlight]

do you think you know what religious people believe better than they do?

I think a lot of people are not very consciously aware of all their motivations for holding all their various beliefs. I think it's very easily possible, even common, for people to mistaken about why they believe things they believe. The vast majority of everyone's beliefs tend to come down to "I heard it from someone I trust" or "I believe it because people around me believe it", because nobody has the time and skills to rigorously check every single information claim they ever hear. I don't think, in general, that it's presumptuous or unwarranted to think another person might be wrong about why they believe certain things and wrong about their motives for believing it.

I tend to think that using aggregate statistics about the different groups that are taking positions on abortion might well be more useful that specific individuals' anecdotal accounts of what they claim to believe their motivations to be. A pro-life stance seems to overlap heavily with particular religious affiliations. It might, of course, ultimately be simply that churches are a useful existing social network that pro-life groups have found they can use to proliferate through. But it is easy to see why a belief that humans have souls, or that God put humans in charge of the animals might lead people to hold views that human life is uniquely important. I have also often seen the "do not murder" commandment misused to claim that it depicts divine opposition to abortion. For many US evangelical Christians, opposition to abortion and homosexuality seems to be the litmus test for being in the in-group.

[Tassman]

So, 76% of white evangelicals oppose abortion, and from that, you infer that "all religious groups" oppose abortion?

Do you have any idea how many religious groups there are that are very, very different from white evangelicals?

Some idea yes, they’re listed in the Pew Research link I posted in the previous post and which was the basis of my 76% 'White Evangelicals' figure.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...bout-abortion/

But I’ll rephrase, “most religious groups tend to oppose abortion".

[Zymologist]

I think a lot of people are not very consciously aware of all their motivations for holding all their various beliefs. I think it's very easily possible, even common, for people to mistaken about why they believe things they believe. The vast majority of everyone's beliefs tend to come down to "I heard it from someone I trust" or "I believe it because people around me believe it", because nobody has the time and skills to rigorously check every single information claim they ever hear. I don't think, in general, that it's presumptuous or unwarranted to think another person might be wrong about why they believe certain things and wrong about their motives for believing it.

I tend to think that using aggregate statistics about the different groups that are taking positions on abortion might well be more useful that specific individuals' anecdotal accounts of what they claim to believe their motivations to be. A pro-life stance seems to overlap heavily with particular religious affiliations. It might, of course, ultimately be simply that churches are a useful existing social network that pro-life groups have found they can use to proliferate through. But it is easy to see why a belief that humans have souls, or that God put humans in charge of the animals might lead people to hold views that human life is uniquely important. I have also often seen the "do not murder" commandment misused to claim that it depicts divine opposition to abortion. For many US evangelical Christians, opposition to abortion and homosexuality seems to be the litmus test for being in the in-group.

So in other words yes, you do think you know what they believe better than they do.

I'm so glad you guys are willing to listen to people who disagree with you.

[Starlight]

I'm so glad you guys are willing to listen to people who disagree with you.

You're equating listening with agreeing. I'm willing to listen and to add what they say to the existing pool of facts and information I have. If I had only their statements, and no information that contradicted that, I would probably believe their statements were correct. But my life's experience has given me quite a lot of information on the subject, with data from many different people and sources, so the claims of a few people on this website do not necessarily alter the overall conclusion that I draw from the data I have. Also, as a general rule, I don't regard posters on this site as particularly reliable sources to begin with.

[Jedidiah]

You're equating listening with agreeing. I'm willing to listen and to add what they say to the existing pool of facts and information I have. If I had only their statements, and no information that contradicted that, I would probably believe their statements were correct. But my life's experience has given me quite a lot of information on the subject, with data from many different people and sources, so the claims of a few people on this website do not necessarily alter the overall conclusion that I draw from the data I have. Also, as a general rule, I don't regard posters on this site as particularly reliable sources to begin with.

So it is not that YOU know better what people believe than they do, it is that your sources know better what people believe than they do themselves.

[Starlight]

So it is not that YOU know better what people believe than they do, it is that your sources know better what people believe than they do themselves.

As per usual, your reading comprehension appears to be very poor.

[Zymologist]

You're equating listening with agreeing. I'm willing to listen and to add what they say to the existing pool of facts and information I have. If I had only their statements, and no information that contradicted that, I would probably believe their statements were correct. But my life's experience has given me quite a lot of information on the subject, with data from many different people and sources, so the claims of a few people on this website do not necessarily alter the overall conclusion that I draw from the data I have. Also, as a general rule, I don't regard posters on this site as particularly reliable sources to begin with.

Your life's experience allows you to tell people that the reasons they have for believing something are wrong?

You guys are telling people that they're pro-life for reasons they are explicitly telling you are wrong. Do you seriously not see how arrogant that is?

[Tassman]

Your life's experience allows you to tell people that the reasons they have for believing something are wrong?

You guys are telling people that they're pro-life for reasons they are explicitly telling you are wrong. Do you seriously not see how arrogant that is?

The statistics show that the majority of those who are pro-life are religious. It is therefore reasonable to assume that religious belief plays a part in their attitude towards abortion. Why are you so anxious to deny this?