Are You A Good Man....

[seer]

Otherwise known as 'compatibilism'.

Nope, not necessarily. In any case if we do "retain a certain freedom and spontaneity" then I'm good with that since it breaks the deterministic chain.

[37818]

Source: "The Baker Compact Dictionary of Theological Terms - by Gregg R. Allison"

COMPATIBILISM The position that divine sovereignty and human responsibility hold together. Compatibilism maintains that the following two affirmations are compatible: (1) God is absolutely sovereign, but his sovereignty never fuctions in such a way that human responcibility is minimized or destroyed; (2) human beings are morally responsible creatures --- they obey, trust, disobey, rebel --- but this characteristic never functions so as to make God dependant on them. Compatibilism is a framework for understanding the divine plan and human treachery in the crucifixion of Christ (Acts 2:23) and divine election and the human response to the gospel of salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). . . .

© Copyright Original Source

Acts 2:23,
. . . Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: . . .

2 Thessalonians 2:13,
. . . But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . .

[Tassman]

Nope, not necessarily. In any case if we do "retain a certain freedom and spontaneity" then I'm good with that since it breaks the deterministic chain.

More to the point it renders 'libertarian free-will' null and void.

[seer]

More to the point it renders 'libertarian free-will' null and void.

Actually no it doesn't, "freedom and spontaneity" would be requirements of LFW. In any case indeterminism breaks the deterministic chain. And opens up the possibility for LFW.

[Tassman]

Actually no it doesn't, "freedom and spontaneity" would be requirements of LFW. In any case indeterminism breaks the deterministic chain. And opens up the possibility for LFW.

[seer]

Nonsense Tass, if the chain of determinism is broken and there is genuine "freedom and spontaneity" your argument is moot. After all your whole argument against LFW was grounded in the "belief" that there must be a deterministic chain of cause and effect - if that is gone, your objection to LFW is also gone.

[JimL]

Nonsense Tass, if the chain of determinism is broken and there is genuine "freedom and spontaneity" your argument is moot. After all your whole argument against LFW was grounded in the "belief" that there must be a deterministic chain of cause and effect - if that is gone, your objection to LFW is also gone.

I don't think you can win this argument seer until you can explain the details of free agency, determinism is understood, the agent, its choices, are determined by antecedent causes. If free will is emergent, then you need to come up with an explaination as to how that occured in an otherwise determined world, otherwise you are just expressing a belief, and we all already know that that is what you believe.

[37818]

I don't think you can win this argument seer until you can explain the details of free agency, determinism is understood, the agent, its choices, are determined by antecedent causes. If free will is emergent, then you need to come up with an explaination as to how that occured in an otherwise determined world, otherwise you are just expressing a belief, and we all already know that that is what you believe.

The question then is, did you write that as a free agent or where determined to by some antecedent causes?

[JimL]

The question then is, did you write that as a free agent or where determined to by some antecedent causes?

That is the question, yes.

[seer]

I don't think you can win this argument seer until you can explain the details of free agency, determinism is understood, the agent, its choices, are determined by antecedent causes. If free will is emergent, then you need to come up with an explaination as to how that occured in an otherwise determined world, otherwise you are just expressing a belief, and we all already know that that is what you believe.

No Jim, as I have said in the past, I don't think anyone can explain the human will satisfactorily. Especially in light of my beliefs that the immaterial exists and that it does have influence. And let me clear - no one can prove that determinism is universal, that it is always the case - that too is a belief. Indeterminism however offers a logical possibility for LFW.

[Tassman]

No Jim, as I have said in the past, I don't think anyone can explain the human will satisfactorily. Especially in light of my beliefs that the immaterial exists and that it does have influence. And let me clear - no one can prove that determinism is universal, that it is always the case - that too is a belief. Indeterminism however offers a logical possibility for LFW.

[seer]

And with indeterminism you no longer have an argument against LFW. I guess we will leave it there.

[Tassman]

No Jim, as I have said in the past, I don't think anyone can explain the human will satisfactorily. Especially in light of my beliefs that the immaterial exists and that it does have influence.

And let me clear - no one can prove that determinism is universal, that it is always the case - that too is a belief. Indeterminism however offers a logical possibility for LFW.

If you wish to deny that determinism is universal you need to explain how things occur out of nowhere, without any antecedent causes. This is to say that nature is so capricious and inscrutable that we cannot even reason about the principle of uniformity, or any other basic law or constant of the universe. Things happen for no reason!

[37818]

That is the question, yes.

How do you reconcile it, if the antecedent causes makes it determined that what you do are the causes of you being self willed?

[JimL]

How do you reconcile it, if the antecedent causes makes it determined that what you do are the causes of you being self willed?

I had to read that a couple of times to decipher your intent, but it still doesn't make sense. Determined and self willed are cotradictory terms, you can only be one or the other.