Originally posted by Tassman
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Are You A Good Man....
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAltruism, empathy, and gratitude underlie ALL moral behaviour and these qualities evolved via Natural Selection, as a survival mechanism for our species. As well, finding these same qualities in our fellow mammals suggests that they run deep in our brain biology and did NOT arise as a result of moral reasoning or religion. In fact, probably the opposite is true—we attributed to God the very qualities which naturally evolved in us.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI didn't say that. But since you mentioned it. All moral ideals are subjective, which means that no ethical opinion is more valid than its opposite. Now there may be objectively better ways to reach certain moral goals, but here again the goals are subjective.
Also, in the discussion between you and tassman, there seems to be a misunderstanding about ethics and human nature. I read something on Quora by Marcus Geduld that may help explain it. Here follows the explanation: "Though individual ethical rules often try to curb human nature, it's a part of human nature to have ethical rules. All human cultures have ethics, though the individual rules vary from culture to culture. It is part of human nature to construct rules that oppose other parts of human nature."Last edited by stfoskey15; 04-22-2017, 08:04 PM.Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.
"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham
"We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou are fudging again Tass, either everything we do think and say is determined or it isn't. Like you say:"the causal unbroken chain of prior occurrences." If that is the case then it is not religion that is the problem nor Communism nor totalitarianism, it is nature.
Conversely, in your world of libertarian free-will, our behaviour is not determined by antecedent events, it arises magically from a vacuum. See how silly your argument is?
This is how the laws of nature created us to think and act. You are in fact complaining about nature! Again, rather silly...“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by stfoskey15 View PostIf no ethical opinion is more valid than its opposite, then it's not arguable for all intents and purposes, because arguing your views would be a waste of time.
Also, in the discussion between you and tassman, there seems to be a misunderstanding about ethics and human nature. I read something on Quora by Marcus Geduld that may help explain it. Here follows the explanation: "Though individual ethical rules often try to curb human nature, it's a part of human nature to have ethical rules. All human cultures have ethics, though the individual rules vary from culture to culture. It is part of human nature to construct rules that oppose other parts of human nature."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWe have the illusion of free-will which is all “free-will” can actually mean. Acting as if we possess it, whilst intellectually acknowledging that we don’t, is the only possible means of acquiring knowledge and making moral judgements based on seemingly “freely-chosen” motives. In short, our choices matter in the overall scheme of things.
Certain behaviours have evolved but nature didn’t create us to do anything, you’re confusing “nature” with your imaginary creator deity.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOur choices matter no more or less than the choices of a pack of wolves. Our influence is no more than that of an avalanche that destroys a Swiss village. They are all equally determined by the laws of nature.
Conversely, in your world of libertarian free-will, our behaviour is not determined by antecedent events, it arises magically from a vacuum. This is the logically incoherent nonsense you spout as you continue to misrepresent determinism. So, please explain how your libertarian free-will decisions arise in a vacuum...or will you continue to evade this fundamental question?
That is just stupid Tass, of course nature created (or determined) us to do these things. If nature didn't what did?Last edited by Tassman; 04-24-2017, 02:37 AM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWe make choices under the illusion of free will and these choices effect change. We don't passively sit back and wait for things to happen to us...this is fatalism, not determinism.
Conversely, in your world of libertarian free-will, our behaviour is not determined by antecedent events, it arises magically from a vacuum. This is the logically incoherent nonsense you spout as you continue to misrepresent determinism. So, please explain how your libertarian free-will decisions arise in a vacuum...or will you continue to evade this fundamental question?
Nature evolves, it doesn't create. The latter implies a designed purpose.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell I am speaking of humans here, but if you bring a moral and just God into the picture then things change.
Interesting that we want to curb basic, natural behaviors.Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.
"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham
"We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card
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Originally posted by seer View PostJust like a pack of wolves don't sit back and wait for things to happen. Does that make our choices and acts any less determined than theirs?
No Tass, I have explained this to you a dozen times. You keep trying to force me into answering these questions based on you unproven assumption of philosophical naturalism.
I did not even hint at design or purpose.
The bottom line is that if you are correct then nature alone is responsible for our religious tendencies,“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by stfoskey15 View PostI mean I still don't buy your claim that no ethical opinion is more valid than its opposite.
It has allowed us to create civilization. It seems like it was an effective evolutionary development.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostHumans, along with all sentient species, act on the illusory assumption of free will, i.e. we act as if we possess it.
Your unsubstantiated assumption of LFW magically arising in a vacuum, undetermined by antecedent events, is logically incoherent. It can't exist.
"Nature alone" is responsible for ALL our natural tendencies, including our instinctive need to understand how the universe functions. It's a survival mechanism. Before science we attributed these things to gods...and kept them on side with offerings and sacrifices...but now science better informs us how the universe works and we can "put aside childish things".Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
No Tass, I just don't buy into your philosophical naturalism. Your whole argument is based on that assumption - an assumption that you can not prove. That all that exists is materialistic cause and effect.
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostYou certainly cannot verify that there's more than materialistic cause and effect. Hence your unsubstantiated assumption of Libertarian Free-Will magically arising in a vacuum, undetermined by antecedent events, is logically incoherent. It can't exist.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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