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Are You A Good Man....

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    This does not necessarily mean that we have no influence on the future and its events (this is Fatalism, which you always confuse with Determinism), but that the level to which humans have influence over their future itself is itself very largely dependent on present and past.

    If you think our behaviour is not determined by antecedent events, you need to explain how animals such as us can override the causal unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Until you can explain this neither you nor your henchmen have a valid argument.
    You are fudging again Tass, either everything we do think and say is determined or it isn't. Like you say:"the causal unbroken chain of prior occurrences." If that is the case then it is not religion that is the problem nor Communism nor totalitarianism, it is nature. This is how the laws of nature created us to think and act. You are in fact complaining about nature! Again, rather silly...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      Altruism, empathy, and gratitude underlie ALL moral behaviour and these qualities evolved via Natural Selection, as a survival mechanism for our species. As well, finding these same qualities in our fellow mammals suggests that they run deep in our brain biology and did NOT arise as a result of moral reasoning or religion. In fact, probably the opposite is true—we attributed to God the very qualities which naturally evolved in us.
      Just as, in your world, religious behavior and thought, cruelty, war, dominance, etc... also evolved via Natural Selection.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        I didn't say that. But since you mentioned it. All moral ideals are subjective, which means that no ethical opinion is more valid than its opposite. Now there may be objectively better ways to reach certain moral goals, but here again the goals are subjective.
        If no ethical opinion is more valid than its opposite, then it's not arguable for all intents and purposes, because arguing your views would be a waste of time.

        Also, in the discussion between you and tassman, there seems to be a misunderstanding about ethics and human nature. I read something on Quora by Marcus Geduld that may help explain it. Here follows the explanation: "Though individual ethical rules often try to curb human nature, it's a part of human nature to have ethical rules. All human cultures have ethics, though the individual rules vary from culture to culture. It is part of human nature to construct rules that oppose other parts of human nature."
        Last edited by stfoskey15; 04-22-2017, 08:04 PM.
        Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

        "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

        "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          You are fudging again Tass, either everything we do think and say is determined or it isn't. Like you say:"the causal unbroken chain of prior occurrences." If that is the case then it is not religion that is the problem nor Communism nor totalitarianism, it is nature.
          We have the illusion of free-will which is all “free-will” can actually mean. Acting as if we possess it, whilst intellectually acknowledging that we don’t, is the only possible means of acquiring knowledge and making moral judgements based on seemingly “freely-chosen” motives. In short, our choices matter in the overall scheme of things.

          Conversely, in your world of libertarian free-will, our behaviour is not determined by antecedent events, it arises magically from a vacuum. See how silly your argument is?

          This is how the laws of nature created us to think and act. You are in fact complaining about nature! Again, rather silly...
          Certain behaviours have evolved but nature didn’t create us to do anything, you’re confusing “nature” with your imaginary creator deity.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
            If no ethical opinion is more valid than its opposite, then it's not arguable for all intents and purposes, because arguing your views would be a waste of time.
            Well I am speaking of humans here, but if you bring a moral and just God into the picture then things change.


            Also, in the discussion between you and tassman, there seems to be a misunderstanding about ethics and human nature. I read something on Quora by Marcus Geduld that may help explain it. Here follows the explanation: "Though individual ethical rules often try to curb human nature, it's a part of human nature to have ethical rules. All human cultures have ethics, though the individual rules vary from culture to culture. It is part of human nature to construct rules that oppose other parts of human nature."
            Interesting that we want to curb basic, natural behaviors.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              We have the illusion of free-will which is all “free-will” can actually mean. Acting as if we possess it, whilst intellectually acknowledging that we don’t, is the only possible means of acquiring knowledge and making moral judgements based on seemingly “freely-chosen” motives. In short, our choices matter in the overall scheme of things.
              Our choices matter no more or less than the choices of a pack of wolves. Our influence is no more than that of an avalanche that destroys a Swiss village. They are all equally determined by the laws of nature.

              Certain behaviours have evolved but nature didn’t create us to do anything, you’re confusing “nature” with your imaginary creator deity.
              That is just stupid Tass, of course nature created (or determined) us to do these things. If nature didn't what did?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Our choices matter no more or less than the choices of a pack of wolves. Our influence is no more than that of an avalanche that destroys a Swiss village. They are all equally determined by the laws of nature.
                We make choices under the illusion of free will and these choices effect change. We don't passively sit back and wait for things to happen to us...this is fatalism, not determinism.

                Conversely, in your world of libertarian free-will, our behaviour is not determined by antecedent events, it arises magically from a vacuum. This is the logically incoherent nonsense you spout as you continue to misrepresent determinism. So, please explain how your libertarian free-will decisions arise in a vacuum...or will you continue to evade this fundamental question?

                That is just stupid Tass, of course nature created (or determined) us to do these things. If nature didn't what did?
                Nature evolves, it doesn't create. The latter implies a designed purpose.
                Last edited by Tassman; 04-24-2017, 02:37 AM.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  We make choices under the illusion of free will and these choices effect change. We don't passively sit back and wait for things to happen to us...this is fatalism, not determinism.
                  Just like a pack of wolves don't sit back and wait for things to happen. Does that make our choices and acts any less determined than theirs?

                  Conversely, in your world of libertarian free-will, our behaviour is not determined by antecedent events, it arises magically from a vacuum. This is the logically incoherent nonsense you spout as you continue to misrepresent determinism. So, please explain how your libertarian free-will decisions arise in a vacuum...or will you continue to evade this fundamental question?
                  No Tass, I have explained this to you a dozen times. You keep trying to force me into answering these questions based on you unproven assumption of philosophical naturalism.


                  Nature evolves, it doesn't create. The latter implies a designed purpose.
                  I did not even hint at design or purpose. The bottom line is that if you are correct then nature alone is responsible for our religious tendencies, or the tendency to be cruel. When the Communists murder or ISIS cuts off heads that is because that is how nature determined us to act. So again, when you rail against religion you are actually railing against nature. Why does nature bother you so much?
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Well I am speaking of humans here, but if you bring a moral and just God into the picture then things change.
                    I mean I still don't buy your claim that no ethical opinion is more valid than its opposite.

                    Interesting that we want to curb basic, natural behaviors.
                    It has allowed us to create civilization. It seems like it was an effective evolutionary development.
                    Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

                    "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

                    "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Just like a pack of wolves don't sit back and wait for things to happen. Does that make our choices and acts any less determined than theirs?
                      Humans, along with all sentient species, act on the illusory assumption of free will, i.e. we act as if we possess it.

                      No Tass, I have explained this to you a dozen times. You keep trying to force me into answering these questions based on you unproven assumption of philosophical naturalism.
                      Your unsubstantiated assumption of LFW magically arising in a vacuum, undetermined by antecedent events, is logically incoherent. It can't exist.

                      I did not even hint at design or purpose.
                      Your word "creation" implies a creator whereas nature evolved via natural selection.

                      The bottom line is that if you are correct then nature alone is responsible for our religious tendencies,
                      "Nature alone" is responsible for ALL our natural tendencies, including our instinctive need to understand how the universe functions. It's a survival mechanism. Before science we attributed these things to gods...and kept them on side with offerings and sacrifices...but now science better informs us how the universe works and we can "put aside childish things".
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                        I mean I still don't buy your claim that no ethical opinion is more valid than its opposite.
                        Then demonstrate otherwise. Why is one ethical position more valid than another?


                        It has allowed us to create civilization. It seems like it was an effective evolutionary development.
                        And why is human civilization a moral good? Why is our survival a moral good? Beside most of mankind for most of history has lived under some form of totalitarian rule.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Humans, along with all sentient species, act on the illusory assumption of free will, i.e. we act as if we possess it.
                          But if you are correct we are acting on a lie. But that doesn't change the point that all our acts and choices are determined by the laws of nature.


                          Your unsubstantiated assumption of LFW magically arising in a vacuum, undetermined by antecedent events, is logically incoherent. It can't exist.
                          No Tass, I just don't buy into your philosophical naturalism. Your whole argument is based on that assumption - an assumption that you can not prove. That all that exists is materialistic cause and effect.


                          "Nature alone" is responsible for ALL our natural tendencies, including our instinctive need to understand how the universe functions. It's a survival mechanism. Before science we attributed these things to gods...and kept them on side with offerings and sacrifices...but now science better informs us how the universe works and we can "put aside childish things".
                          So why do you rail against religious tendencies? That is how nature determined that we think or believe. Why do you hate nature so much? And how can one possibly leave his religious beliefs until the laws of nature determine it?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Why is our survival a moral good?
                            It's not, but it would be irrational for us to value that which destroys us.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post


                              No Tass, I just don't buy into your philosophical naturalism. Your whole argument is based on that assumption - an assumption that you can not prove. That all that exists is materialistic cause and effect.

                              You certainly cannot verify that there's more than materialistic cause and effect. Hence your unsubstantiated assumption of Libertarian Free-Will magically arising in a vacuum, undetermined by antecedent events, is logically incoherent. It can't exist.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                You certainly cannot verify that there's more than materialistic cause and effect. Hence your unsubstantiated assumption of Libertarian Free-Will magically arising in a vacuum, undetermined by antecedent events, is logically incoherent. It can't exist.
                                No Tass, I tie free will to the immaterial soul. Which is not subject to materialistic cause and effect. And again, you can not verify that philosophical naturalism is a fact. It is your faith position.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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