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Are You A Good Man....

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Meh, that is not the point I'm getting at. A man can follow the laws of the land for various reason but why not consider himself morally perfect even if in thought he deviates from the norm? Why let the relative mores of a culture dictate to him what is moral or not? And if he can not live up to his own standard why not just change that standard and declare himself morally perfect?
    Most people do this on some level.
    For example, if I like to drive my car at 90mph I'll justify it by claiming 70mph is stupid.

    ^--- That is me implying that I'm above the 70mph social contract.

    As for being morally perfect - I don't know anyone who is aiming for that standard.
    Most of us appear to be content just being better than the other guy.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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    • #17
      Well, it is worth mentioning Jesus being a man, when addressed as good teacher said, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." -- Mark 10;18.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
        As for being morally perfect - I don't know anyone who is aiming for that standard.
        Most of us appear to be content just being better than the other guy.
        Sorry Meh, you are just missing my point.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          I'm not saying that the atheist only lives by his own lights, I'm asking why he wouldn't. Why would he use the culture's standard when he knows that it is relative, and not take his own standard and declare himself morally perfect?
          It is an interesting thing to consider, if one was an atheist would it be more respectable to be a Levayan Satanist who's philosophical outlook is "Whatever thou wants - do it", or a selfish Ayan Rand Objectivist who considers any form of a charity ridiculous and offensive?

          Why Humanism?

          It would depend on the individual philosophical outlook of the atheist, as unfortunately, atheism isn't a proper worldview.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Over the years I have asked a number of Atheists this question - are you a good man. I never really get an confident yes
            I'll happy give you a confident "yes" for myself. For real.

            I guess that now makes your OP statement false.

            It there some kind of moral north star out there that they are moving toward?
            Generally yes. Atheists commonly describe this in various ways along the lines of being loving, kind, compassionate, and caring toward others. Now you can start hitting them with 101 questions (as you usually do, seer) about exactly what they mean by that idea, and try and nail down their philosophical definitions of morality (which, naturally, most average people only have in a very vague way) if you like. But it doesn't change the fact that yes, most atheists these days generally do seem to have a strong sense of 'morality' and see it as about being benevolent toward other people and having good will towards them and acting in ways that help others rather than harm others.

            If this is just a private notion of morality why not just declare yourself morally perfect?
            That sounds like a pointless exercise in circularity, so I can easily see why nobody would bother with that.

            If you are comparing yourself to your present cultural norms why would you see these relative considerations as the standard by which your behaviors should be judged?
            Everyone's thought patterns are hugely shaped by the culture they are brought up in, and only people who are clinically psychopathic are completely unaffected by the people around them. So pretty much everyone is susceptible to peer-pressure to some extent and wants to conform to social standards or would like society to think well of them.


            P.S. In a news video I was watching today, one of the hosts happened to comment about morality:
            [Discussion topic was that the Hindus in their Holi festival, and Amish in Rumspringa, get up to some crazy things, and the hosts were discussing the idea that "Religious people seem to have a lot of pent up desires to do crazy things, which they indulge in if they are allowed a day or a year 'off' their religious morals"]

            Host's own view: "[but] if someone were to tell me, "...Go! Go do whatever you want, no rules." I'm not going to be shooting heroin and going crazy... It's because I'm not religious. I'm a good person. I believe in morals. My morals are "don't hurt other people, and just be kind as much as you can." Unless someone really pisses you off by voting for the wrong person, and then you call them names. [laughing] That's the only time you're not kind."
            Yet another atheist who views their goodness and morality as flowing from their atheism, and their morality as being about doing good to other people. Plus, it's yet another example of an atheist literally saying "I'm a good person".
            Last edited by Starlight; 03-18-2017, 01:48 AM.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              I'll happy give you a confident "yes" for myself. For real.

              That sounds like a pointless exercise in circularity, so I can easily see why nobody would bother with that.
              Yet, you support infanticide. Something that most people in the west find morally repulsive you accept. So you have made a circular argument, "good" can include infanticide. As a man could define rape as a moral good, and claim himself "good" even while holding that view, even because of that view. You are making my point.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Something that most people in the west find morally repulsive you accept.
                I don't agree with your assertions about the proportion of people who would be strongly against my views.

                So you have made a circular argument
                Nope.

                a man could define rape as a moral good, and claim himself "good"
                Obviously. You have your own stupid ideas about morality you've made up. Obviously other silly people can make up silly views too.

                You are making my point.
                Nope. And the claim in the OP that atheists aren't prepared to call themselves "good" was flatly disproven both by myself, and literal video footage I linked you to of an atheist calling herself good.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  I don't agree with your assertions about the proportion of people who would be strongly against my views.

                  Obviously. You have your own stupid ideas about morality you've made up. Obviously other silly people can make up silly views too.
                  That is my point, if you can consider infanticide morally acceptable, then the next man can consider rape morally acceptable (even if he does not act on it). So he and you, define what is ethically acceptable then claim that your view, and you, are morally pure. That is the very definition of circularity. And BTW - most western countries have laws against infanticide - how about your country?

                  Nope. And the claim in the OP that atheists aren't prepared to call themselves "good" was flatly disproven both by myself, and literal video footage I linked you to of an atheist calling herself good.
                  No, I actually think you and the rapist should claim moral perfection, why be dictated to by relative cultural mores or even abstract moral ideals that you invent and can not live up to? I think that would be perfectly logical to jettison both considerations. I think it was De Sade who said "What ever is, is right..."
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    So he and you, define what is ethically acceptable then claim that your view, and you, are morally pure.
                    You realize my general definition of morality is widely held? It isn't just me personally making it up.

                    That is the very definition of circularity.
                    No it isn't. I suggest you don't use philosophical terms if you don't understand what they mean.

                    I actually think you and the rapist should claim moral perfection, why be dictated to by relative cultural mores or even abstract moral ideals that you invent and can not live up to?
                    Says the guy who is dictated to by abstract moral ideals that he's invented and can not live up to.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      You realize my general definition of morality is widely held? It isn't just me personally making it up.
                      A view where it is fine to wantonly murder infants several weeks old if the mother decides she doesn't want them? You are deluding yourself.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        You realize my general definition of morality is widely held? It isn't just me personally making it up.
                        But why not just make up your own ethical standard that you can fulfill and claim moral perfection? What is preventing that?

                        No it isn't. I suggest you don't use philosophical terms if you don't understand what they mean.
                        I know exactly what it means - instead of an assertion show me where I was wrong - exactly.

                        Says the guy who is dictated to by abstract moral ideals that he's invented and can not live up to.
                        Again you did not show me where my logic was off.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Over the years I have asked a number of Atheists this question - are you a good man. I never really get an confident yes, the answers are usually qualified. Yes, I'm good but not perfect, or no I'm not that good, or I'm pretty good, but I have a long way to go. So by their own lights they are falling short of their own ideal. But why? It there some kind of moral north star out there that they are moving toward? If this is just a private notion of morality why not just declare yourself morally perfect? If you are comparing yourself to your present cultural norms why would you see these relative considerations as the standard by which your behaviors should be judged? Knowing that they are relative?
                          I think that if you first define what it is that you mean by the term "good", not its source, but what you mean by the term good itself, then you might get the more clear cut answer that you are seeking. You don't seem to have any notion as to what you mean by "good" other than your belief that it is grounded in a objective source. The atheist can explain what he means by "good" without the need of seeing goodness as an objective reality grounded in an objective source, apparently the religious can't seem to understand that, and they can't understand it because they don't really have a grasp of what it is that they mean by the term itself.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            A view where it is fine to wantonly murder infants several weeks old if the mother decides she doesn't want them?
                            You know what I paraphrase comments such as this to in my mind as I read them? "I hate abortion! Waaaaaaaaaaaaah!"
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              But why not just make up your own ethical standard that you can fulfill and claim moral perfection? What is preventing that?
                              That it's utterly pointless so nobody has any motivation to do it?

                              Again you did not show me where my logic was off.
                              What logic? You're just asserting dumb and false things.

                              I've given you a couple of empirical disproofs, where atheists say "I am good". How about you start by acknowledging that evidence?
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                But why not just make up your own ethical standard that you can fulfill and claim moral perfection? What is preventing that?
                                We are members of a social species and from infancy have been socially conditioned by our community as to right and wrong. The community sets the standard, not the individual. The latter is the very definition of a sociopath.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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