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Are You A Good Man....

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Says the guy who is dictated to by abstract moral ideals that he's invented and can not live up to.
    As a supposedly knowledgeable Bible scholar you are aware of what the Bible actually teaches about those who claim to follow their own warped morality (think Pharisees). To make that claim is lying, which gives you my opinion of your own claim to be "good."

    On the other hand believers are given a very concrete morality. We endeavor to live up to it, but are not able and we admit that failure, but don't quit trying or twist the concepts to allow what we want them to be.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      You know what I paraphrase comments such as this to in my mind as I read them? "I hate abortion! Waaaaaaaaaaaaah!"
      Interesting how you keep trying to equate your approval of killing children several weeks old with abortion since you know that many of your liberal friends approve of the latter but not the former. It's like you realize just how repulsive your view and wish to conceal it from them.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
        On the other hand believers are given a very concrete morality.
        Well actually Paul was quite emphatic that believers should follow the "spirit" and not the letter of the law. That's kind of the opposite of being a "concrete" morality.

        As I've said before in this forum, I think Paul and Jesus deliberately critiqued a divine-command-follow-the-lawcode theory of morality, and deliberately tried to institute a heart-based love-others theory of morality. Thus in the NT we see those two theories of morality in opposition - the former is taught by the Pharisees and the emphasis is on following all of God's commands and rules to the letter, and condemning as sinners those who don't follow the rules - and that form of morality is condemned harshly by Jesus and also condemned by Paul as being the law that brings death etc. Unfortunately US evangelicals appear to have embraced a pharasetic understanding of morality and have exactly that divine-command-follow-the-lawcode view of morality and enjoy condemning those who don't follow their rules. Jesus had a lot of bad stuff to say about those sort of people. In the place of that "law" that "brings death", Paul and Jesus put forth a new heart-based morality of loving others, where the rules are not individually spelled out and there aren't a fixed set of specific rules to be followed, and instead there's just the "spirit" of the law - love for others. Things like helping the needy, and the poor, and the persecuted flow out of that, but there is no full specific list given of exactly how to love others, because it's not a 'very concrete morality' it's one that is guided by the 'spirit'.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Interesting how you keep trying to equate your approval of killing children several weeks old with abortion
          I equate it because to me it is the same. What does it matter whether the fetus is outside the womb or inside when it is killed? To me that makes no moral difference. To me what is important is the level of cognitive function in the entity: Does it have a sense of itself existing across time? Does it have purposes? Does it have goals? Does it have memories? Does it assign meaning to things? etc. I am a vegetarian because I cannot morally countenance the regular killing of intelligent animals for food, because they do have those sorts of qualities. But I don't mind killing things like insects, which I don't believe have those qualities in any major way. So obviously at stages where the fetus has a level of those qualities that are more-insect-like I'm fine with it being killed. Whereas once it passes into a level of cognitive function on par with more intelligent animals I am unhappy about it being killed but in a world where billions of such animals are regularly killed for meat, I can tolerate a human mother as a once-off deciding she doesn't want to raise the baby and deciding to kill it. And once the infant's brain significantly develops to significantly-above-animal levels of cognitive function, I'm can no longer sanction its death at all. That provides me with a framework as to where to draw the line for abortion.

          Many others use different reasoning and draw the line in a different place - no abortion once the fetus has a central nervous system capable of taking pain signals to the brain. Personally that doesn't strike me as logically consistent since those people would usually kill a fly or eat a steak and yet would acknowledge that those animals had functioning nervous systems.

          Anyway, it is completely irrelevant in the sense that the existing law is far more strict that I personally would be, and I have zero power to change the existing law, and I don't personally know anyone who I'm aware of having had an abortion, so the subject is purely hypothetical in the extreme. You're totally flogging a dead horse by bringing it up over and over and over again, and I would say it speaks to some sort of cognitive dementia or unwholesome obsession on your part.

          since you know that many of your liberal friends approve of the latter but not the former. It's like you realize just how repulsive your view and wish to conceal it from them.
          On the contrary, at least half a dozen of my friends are aware of my views. It's very very rare for abortion to ever be brought up in conversation, but when it is I don't mind explaining my views.

          What I am reticent to share are my views on modern feminism with my female feminist friends. That's the no-go topic. I'm 100% for women's rights, but certain people have fact-free outrage-rants and need to be treated with kid-gloves rather than have it explained logically they're talking nonsense. The SJW feminists screaming "raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaappppppppppppppeeeeee !" in outrage can be almost as bad as the SIW knuckleheads here screaming "abortion! infanticide! abortion! infanticide!" in that regard... at least rape is actually a bad thing so the feminists have at least a basic justification underlying their layers and layers of fact-free outrage, whereas the crazy anti-abortionists on this forum don't even have that.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            The atheist can explain what he means by "good" without the need of seeing goodness as an objective reality grounded in an objective source, apparently the religious can't seem to understand that, and they can't understand it because they don't really have a grasp of what it is that they mean by the term itself.
            Really Jim, what is good then? How do you define it? I define good as those behaviors and attitudes that line up with the teachings of Christ and the New Testament in general. I am a Christina after all.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              That it's utterly pointless so nobody has any motivation to do it?
              I asking about the logic of that decision, why not?

              What logic? You're just asserting dumb and false things.
              No answer I see.

              I've given you a couple of empirical disproofs, where atheists say "I am good". How about you start by acknowledging that evidence?
              Star, I said that in my OP. Some atheists will say that they are good - but qualify it with things like I am not perfect. Are you morally perfect Star?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Some atheists will say that they are good - but qualify it with things like I am not perfect.
                Yeah, I and showed two counterexamples where atheists were happy to state they were good without adding any qualification.

                Are you morally perfect Star?
                That's a completely different question. Previously you asked if I was good. Now you're asking if I'm perfect. I reject the meaningfulness or relevance of the term "morally perfect".

                I think the evangelical obsession with the idea of falling short of perfection is a serious misreading of the bible, and I think that the bible writers thought that God was concerned only with whether any particular individual was on-the-whole generally good or on-the-whole generally evil. I think the bible writers really thought that individuals could be good in the eyes of God by doing good and being good. I think the whole "no one is righteous" obsession evangelicals have is a severe misreading of the argument Paul is making in Rom 3 where he is saying that no people-group (i.e. Jews or gentiles) has an inherent status of righteous before God, and that instead what matters are the actions of individuals who are righteous or evil based on their actions as Paul says repeatedly in Rom 2.
                Last edited by Starlight; 03-19-2017, 05:39 AM.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  I equate it because to me it is the same. What does it matter whether the fetus is outside the womb or inside when it is killed? To me that makes no moral difference. To me what is important is the level of cognitive function in the entity: Does it have a sense of itself existing across time? Does it have purposes? Does it have goals? Does it have memories? Does it assign meaning to things? etc.
                  So you invent or latch onto an arbitrary standard for what constitutes a being that has the right to live. During the "cultural revolution" the criterion for life was whether you held correct political views or not. You would have made a good Maoist Star.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    Y
                    That's a completely different question. Previously you asked if I was good. Now you're asking if I'm perfect. I reject the meaningfulness or relevance of the term "morally perfect".
                    No Star, that was in the OP as one of the answers I got. So you are morally perfect or not? Why not just declare yourself so, as you declared yourself "good?" Why balk?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      We are members of a social species and from infancy have been socially conditioned by our community as to right and wrong. The community sets the standard, not the individual. The latter is the very definition of a sociopath.
                      But why let the relative cultural mores define these things for us?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Really Jim, what is good then? How do you define it? I define good as those behaviors and attitudes that line up with the teachings of Christ and the New Testament in general. I am a Christina after all.
                        Thats obscure seer, that doesn't define what good itself means to you. "Good" may line up with the teachings of Christ, but how do you define it in and of itself? Do you consider an action "good" simply because it lines up with the teachings of Christ, or is it a "good" in and of itself, and if so, what makes it good?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Thats obscure seer, that doesn't define what good itself means to you. "Good" may line up with the teachings of Christ, but how do you define it in and of itself? Do you consider an action "good" simply because it lines up with the teachings of Christ, or is it a "good" in and of itself, and if so, what makes it good?
                          It is good BECAUSE it lines up with the teaching of Christ, since Christ is the embodiment of goodness. So how do you define good Jim? Personal ideals? What the culture dictates?
                          Last edited by seer; 03-19-2017, 10:18 AM.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            It is good BECAUSE it lines up with the teaching of Christ, since Christ is the embodiment of goodness. So how do you define good Jim? Personal ideals? What the culture dictates?
                            This answer is what I mean when I say that you, that the religious, have no real idea of what it is that you/they mean by "good." Saying that "good" lines up with the "embodiment of goodness" is doublespeak, it doesn't define the "embodiment of goodness" anymore so than it defines "good." If you have no idea what it is that you actually mean by the term "good" in and of itself, then your original question makes no sense.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              This answer is what I mean when I say that you, that the religious, have no real idea of what it is that you/they mean by "good." Saying that "good" lines up with the "embodiment of goodness" is doublespeak, it doesn't define the "embodiment of goodness" anymore so than it defines "good." If you have no idea what it is that you actually mean by the term "good" in and of itself, then your original question makes no sense.
                              That is nonsense Jim, if God is not the source or definition of good then what is? You? The Culture - what? Put your cards on the table.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                That is nonsense Jim, if God is not the source or definition of good then what is? You? The Culture - what? Put your cards on the table.
                                Common sense seer. Being the source of a thing doesnt define the thing itself. To say God=good or that good=God doesn't define what is meant by either. You can, with words, define what you mean by God, but you can't use that same definition to explain what you mean by good. So, again, if you can't explain exactly what it is that you mean by the term "good" in and of itself, then your original question makes no sense and can't be answered.

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