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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    The universe just 'IS', this is all one can say with certainty. Unlike you, I'm not looking for reasons to believe in a deity.
    Yeah. What should the description really be if one is not going to believe in any deity, and not use the term 'atheist' or 'non-theist?' I am the one asking this. How about "Not superstitious" instead.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      The universe just 'IS', this is all one can say with certainty. Unlike you, I'm not looking for reasons to believe in a deity.
      "It just IS" sounds to me like an atheist version of "God did it"; a response which discourages further scientific inquiry.

      In science, we try to figure out why things are the way they are, why they exist, how they came about. We aren't satisfied with "it just IS".
      "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Hey Tassy, If God came to you and brought back to life someone you know who was dead, would you believe in him then?
        As in the myth of Lazarus's raising from the dead, you mean?

        I would assume that there's a natural explanation. We don't understand "therefore God" is not an approach we take in the scientific era,

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        If you truly are open to believing that God could exist, you would be able to come up with a hypothetical standard of evidence that you would accept and would convince you of his existence. The fact that you refuse to even consider the possibility that God can exist means you will not accept any evidence I or anyone (including God himself) can provide.
        Why would I want to be “open to believing that God could exist”? I know of no logically coherent alternative to materialism. I have yet to see evidence to convince me otherwise. Your improbable hypotheticals’, as per above, are not evidence.
        Last edited by Tassman; 04-25-2017, 08:29 PM.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
          "It just IS" sounds to me like an atheist version of "God did it"; a response which discourages further scientific inquiry.

          In science, we try to figure out why things are the way they are, why they exist, how they came about. We aren't satisfied with "it just IS".
          I agree. I was responding to 37818's Aristotelian notion that there must be a "cause".
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            As in the myth of Lazarus's raising from the dead, you mean?

            I would assume that there's a natural explanation. We don't understand "therefore God" is not an approach we take in the scientific era,



            Why would I want to be “open to believing that God could exist”? I know of no logically coherent alternative to materialism. I have yet to see evidence to convince me otherwise. Your improbable hypotheticals’, as per above, are not evidence.
            I keep trying to give you chances to show you are open minded, even hypothetically and you just keep showing you are not.

            Yes, like Lazarus. People knew him and knew he died and he was brought back to life 3 days later. What if something like that happened to you personally?

            Surely you know someone personally who has died? What if God brought them back to life for you? Say your Grandma or some aunt or uncle. Or even a favorite pet. Poof, there they were. Alive and well. Would you believe in God then?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              I keep trying to give you chances to show you are open minded,
              Big of you!

              Yes, like Lazarus. People knew him and knew he died and he was brought back to life 3 days later.
              Only according to the gospel of John...dated at c 100 CE...clearly an embellished tale with theological significance.

              What if something like that happened to you personally?

              Surely you know someone personally who has died? What if God brought them back to life for you? Say your Grandma or some aunt or uncle. Or even a favorite pet. Poof, there they were. Alive and well. Would you believe in God then?
              Firstly, this is a highly unlikely scenario, which proves nothing. Secondly, I would assume that there's a natural explanation. Nowadays we don't usually conclude "therefore God" whenever something we don't understand occurs...unlike people in the more credulous pre-scientific era.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Big of you!



                Only according to the gospel of John...dated at c 100 CE...clearly an embellished tale with theological significance.



                Firstly, this is a highly unlikely scenario, which proves nothing. Secondly, I would assume that there's a natural explanation. Nowadays we don't usually conclude "therefore God" whenever something we don't understand occurs...unlike people in the more credulous pre-scientific era.
                Natural. right. because people come back from the dead all the time.

                You prove the point of the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus:

                27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

                29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

                30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

                31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

                Basically, Tassman, if you would not believe even if someone you know came back from the dead, then absolutely nothing would convince you. So it doesn't really matter what the truth is to you. If God is real you don't care and would not believe it anyway. You are not an atheist because you don't have evidence for God, evidence doesn't matter to you. You are an atheist simply because you don't want there to be a God. You are as bad as John Martin and his dumbass belief that the earth is the center of the universe. Nothing will convince him because he rejects any evidence. He is close-minded. Just like you.

                So the next time you post that you want "empirical evidence" for something, we don't bother wasting our time on you. Because that is just a way to dismiss anyone who believes in God.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  No, I wasn't. I was objecting to Yttrium's claim re expectations of the proposers of scientific hypotheses.

                  AFAICT your claim is not that god-proponents need to provide evidence and routes to disproof, but that you don't need to help them - not even to the extent of discussing acceptable classes of evidence. I disagree.
                  I have as a matter of fact. I've said repeatedly that I would require verifiable empirical evidence. Personal testimony of subjective experiences of God in their lives is not sufficient.
                  Last edited by Tassman; 04-27-2017, 10:32 PM.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Natural. right. because people come back from the dead all the time.
                    There’s no credible evidence that anyone’s come back from the dead. And if someone makes that claim I would assume that there's a natural explanation for the apparent revival from the dead. As per Hume, Ehrman et al, ANY natural explanation, no matter how unlikely, is more likely that attributing it to a miracle.

                    You prove the point of the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus:

                    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

                    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

                    30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

                    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
                    Nice story! Proves nothing!

                    Basically, Tassman, if you would not believe even if someone you know came back from the dead, then absolutely nothing would convince you. So it doesn't really matter what the truth is to you. If God is real you don't care and would not believe it anyway. You are not an atheist because you don't have evidence for God, evidence doesn't matter to you. You are an atheist simply because you don't want there to be a God.

                    So the next time you post that you want "empirical evidence" for something, we don't bother wasting our time on you. Because that is just a way to dismiss anyone who believes in God.
                    Dismissing the existence of a deity due to lack of verifiable evidence seems perfectly reasonable to me. Feel free to differ.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      There’s no credible evidence that anyone’s come back from the dead. And if someone makes that claim I would assume that there's a natural explanation for the apparent revival from the dead. As per Hume, Ehrman et al, ANY natural explanation, no matter how unlikely, is more likely that attributing it to a miracle.



                      Nice story! Proves nothing!



                      Dismissing the existence of a deity due to lack of verifiable evidence seems perfectly reasonable to me. Feel free to differ.
                      I would think that someone you know coming back from the dead would be pretty verifiable evidence, Tassman. After all you could ask them about it, other people can see them alive again after being dead. Pretty verifiable. If that doesn't convince you then nothing would.

                      You can't even give an example of "verifiable evidence" that you would accept, even hypothetically. In fact, every hypothetical I have presented you have rejected. If God doing miracles for you on command isn't going to convince you, then nothing will. Except of course when you die and are face to face with him. I would like to see you try to deny him then.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        I would think that someone you know coming back from the dead would be pretty verifiable evidence, Tassman. After all you could ask them about it, other people can see them alive again after being dead. Pretty verifiable. If that doesn't convince you then nothing would.
                        What is not verifiable is that the person concerned was truly dead, not just seemingly dead. Perhaps if said person had been decapitated and the body rotted.......

                        You seem anxious to blame me for not believing your religious nonsense.

                        You can't even give an example of "verifiable evidence" that you would accept, even hypothetically. In fact, every hypothetical I have presented you have rejected. If God doing miracles for you on command isn't going to convince you, then nothing will.
                        The only hypothetical’s you’ve presented have been based upon biblical myths, not empirically verified evidence.

                        Except of course when you die and are face to face with him. I would like to see you try to deny him then.
                        I will give the deity a convincing argument as to why he can’t exist and he will disappear in a puff of logic.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Except of course when you die and are face to face with him. I would like to see you try to deny him then.
                          If I find myself face-to-face with God after I die, I will not attempt to deny him then.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                            If I find myself face-to-face with God after I die, I will not attempt to deny him then.
                            You will not be able to not admit that you had. And your name being removed from the book of life - you will be eternal toast.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              I have as a matter of fact. I've said repeatedly that I would require verifiable empirical evidence. Personal testimony of subjective experiences of God in their lives is not sufficient.
                              You would reject your own experience with God as subjective, no doubt.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                What is not verifiable is that the person concerned was truly dead, not just seemingly dead. Perhaps if said person had been decapitated and the body rotted.......
                                sure. whatever you want. I said it was someone you knew. I assume you would know if they were really dead or not.


                                You seem anxious to blame me for not believing your religious nonsense.
                                no. this started because you we were talking about why people believe and I said I did because I found the evidence to be good, and you started questioning what evidence is good. So I showed you that for you NO EVIDENCE WOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH.




                                The only hypothetical’s you’ve presented have been based upon biblical myths, not empirically verified evidence.
                                apparently Jesus did give those people verifiable empirical evidence when he came back to life huh? They were not as close minded as you.

                                I will give the deity a convincing argument as to why he can’t exist and he will disappear in a puff of logic.
                                sure you will Tassy. ha. you will fall to your knees and beg and apologize and cry like a baby. that is what you will do.

                                Comment

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