Originally posted by Tassman
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe universe just 'IS', this is all one can say with certainty. Unlike you, I'm not looking for reasons to believe in a deity.
In science, we try to figure out why things are the way they are, why they exist, how they came about. We aren't satisfied with "it just IS"."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHey Tassy, If God came to you and brought back to life someone you know who was dead, would you believe in him then?
I would assume that there's a natural explanation. We don't understand "therefore God" is not an approach we take in the scientific era,
Originally posted by Sparko View Post
If you truly are open to believing that God could exist, you would be able to come up with a hypothetical standard of evidence that you would accept and would convince you of his existence. The fact that you refuse to even consider the possibility that God can exist means you will not accept any evidence I or anyone (including God himself) can provide.Last edited by Tassman; 04-25-2017, 08:29 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post"It just IS" sounds to me like an atheist version of "God did it"; a response which discourages further scientific inquiry.
In science, we try to figure out why things are the way they are, why they exist, how they came about. We aren't satisfied with "it just IS".“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAs in the myth of Lazarus's raising from the dead, you mean?
I would assume that there's a natural explanation. We don't understand "therefore God" is not an approach we take in the scientific era,
Why would I want to be “open to believing that God could exist”? I know of no logically coherent alternative to materialism. I have yet to see evidence to convince me otherwise. Your improbable hypotheticals’, as per above, are not evidence.
Yes, like Lazarus. People knew him and knew he died and he was brought back to life 3 days later. What if something like that happened to you personally?
Surely you know someone personally who has died? What if God brought them back to life for you? Say your Grandma or some aunt or uncle. Or even a favorite pet. Poof, there they were. Alive and well. Would you believe in God then?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI keep trying to give you chances to show you are open minded,
Yes, like Lazarus. People knew him and knew he died and he was brought back to life 3 days later.
What if something like that happened to you personally?
Surely you know someone personally who has died? What if God brought them back to life for you? Say your Grandma or some aunt or uncle. Or even a favorite pet. Poof, there they were. Alive and well. Would you believe in God then?“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostBig of you!
Only according to the gospel of John...dated at c 100 CE...clearly an embellished tale with theological significance.
Firstly, this is a highly unlikely scenario, which proves nothing. Secondly, I would assume that there's a natural explanation. Nowadays we don't usually conclude "therefore God" whenever something we don't understand occurs...unlike people in the more credulous pre-scientific era.
You prove the point of the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus:
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Basically, Tassman, if you would not believe even if someone you know came back from the dead, then absolutely nothing would convince you. So it doesn't really matter what the truth is to you. If God is real you don't care and would not believe it anyway. You are not an atheist because you don't have evidence for God, evidence doesn't matter to you. You are an atheist simply because you don't want there to be a God. You are as bad as John Martin and his dumbass belief that the earth is the center of the universe. Nothing will convince him because he rejects any evidence. He is close-minded. Just like you.
So the next time you post that you want "empirical evidence" for something, we don't bother wasting our time on you. Because that is just a way to dismiss anyone who believes in God.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostNo, I wasn't. I was objecting to Yttrium's claim re expectations of the proposers of scientific hypotheses.
AFAICT your claim is not that god-proponents need to provide evidence and routes to disproof, but that you don't need to help them - not even to the extent of discussing acceptable classes of evidence. I disagree.Last edited by Tassman; 04-27-2017, 10:32 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNatural. right. because people come back from the dead all the time.
You prove the point of the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus:
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Basically, Tassman, if you would not believe even if someone you know came back from the dead, then absolutely nothing would convince you. So it doesn't really matter what the truth is to you. If God is real you don't care and would not believe it anyway. You are not an atheist because you don't have evidence for God, evidence doesn't matter to you. You are an atheist simply because you don't want there to be a God.
So the next time you post that you want "empirical evidence" for something, we don't bother wasting our time on you. Because that is just a way to dismiss anyone who believes in God.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere’s no credible evidence that anyone’s come back from the dead. And if someone makes that claim I would assume that there's a natural explanation for the apparent revival from the dead. As per Hume, Ehrman et al, ANY natural explanation, no matter how unlikely, is more likely that attributing it to a miracle.
Nice story! Proves nothing!
Dismissing the existence of a deity due to lack of verifiable evidence seems perfectly reasonable to me. Feel free to differ.
You can't even give an example of "verifiable evidence" that you would accept, even hypothetically. In fact, every hypothetical I have presented you have rejected. If God doing miracles for you on command isn't going to convince you, then nothing will. Except of course when you die and are face to face with him. I would like to see you try to deny him then.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI would think that someone you know coming back from the dead would be pretty verifiable evidence, Tassman. After all you could ask them about it, other people can see them alive again after being dead. Pretty verifiable. If that doesn't convince you then nothing would.
You seem anxious to blame me for not believing your religious nonsense.
You can't even give an example of "verifiable evidence" that you would accept, even hypothetically. In fact, every hypothetical I have presented you have rejected. If God doing miracles for you on command isn't going to convince you, then nothing will.
Except of course when you die and are face to face with him. I would like to see you try to deny him then.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostIf I find myself face-to-face with God after I die, I will not attempt to deny him then.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostI have as a matter of fact. I've said repeatedly that I would require verifiable empirical evidence. Personal testimony of subjective experiences of God in their lives is not sufficient.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhat is not verifiable is that the person concerned was truly dead, not just seemingly dead. Perhaps if said person had been decapitated and the body rotted.......
You seem anxious to blame me for not believing your religious nonsense.
The only hypothetical’s you’ve presented have been based upon biblical myths, not empirically verified evidence.
I will give the deity a convincing argument as to why he can’t exist and he will disappear in a puff of logic.
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