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Counterfeits.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    But the question for you to answer then, why so many competing claims for Christianity?
    Why not? A religion needs followers in order to survive, and it needs a large number of followers in order to dominate a large fraction of the world. No matter what you're selling, product variety is a highly reliable way of increasing market share.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      Interesting that you as an unbeliever know what God would do and what He would not do.
      I know nothing except what believers tell me about God, and I know what the world would look like if what they said was true.
      Last edited by Doug Shaver; 03-14-2017, 01:47 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
        Interesting that you as an unbeliever know what God would do and what He would not do.
        You are a Christian, can you tell me if I got it wrong?

        1. Does God want his message to be received by mankind?

        2. Does God care if the message is garbled?

        3. Is God capable of (i.e., sufficiently powerful) ensuring the message is not garbled?

        From what I have read of the Christian religion, I think the answers are "yes, "yes" and "yes" respectively. If you can say what I have got wrong, perhaps we can discuss it.
        My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
          If Jesus Christ were present in the US today, or in any other country, He would again be done to death.
          Highly unlikely, even more so if he were in a country with no death penalty.

          In fact the rest of your paragraph contradicts you:
          Very likely by the kind of people whom one might think would be certain to recognise Him. He was found to be mortally offensive by some. because He and His Teaching were a mortal threat to what they held dear. That would presumably not change, if He preached today. And He does, through His Church. One either believes He is Present and Active in His Church, or one does not. What the Church has to do, is to represent Him, without our sinful fallen egotism getting in the way.
          If church members representing Jesus and preaching his message are not done to death, there's no reason to think Jesus himself would be.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            As Gerbil noted, your argument assumes it conclusion.
            In order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article. Only what is deemed to be of value is counterfeited. Christianity is not the only belief system. Yet it is the one with more counterfeits.

            Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            Why not? A religion needs followers in order to survive, and it needs a large number of followers in order to dominate a large fraction of the world. No matter what you're selling, product variety is a highly reliable way of increasing market share.
            A religion based on falsehood is really worthless. Like counterfeit money is to genuine money.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              In order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article. Only what is deemed to be of value is counterfeited. Christianity is not the only belief system. Yet it is the one with more counterfeits.
              So when FOX showed an alien autopsy (counterfeit) that proved a real alien autopsy must have occurred?
              So when a counterfeit Loch Ness monster is found in Scotland that proves the real one exists?
              Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                You are a Christian, can you tell me if I got it wrong?

                1. Does God want his message to be received by mankind?

                2. Does God care if the message is garbled?

                3. Is God capable of (i.e., sufficiently powerful) ensuring the message is not garbled?

                From what I have read of the Christian religion, I think the answers are "yes, "yes" and "yes" respectively. If you can say what I have got wrong, perhaps we can discuss it.
                God's message is not garbled. Yet those who profess to deny it have some how gotten it wrong.

                ". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. " -- The Apostle Paul, from his 2nd letter to the Corinthian church.

                So, if you would: What would you explain that gospel message to be? And why do you suppose it should be wanted to be believed?
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  In order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article. Only what is deemed to be of value is counterfeited. Christianity is not the only belief system. Yet it is the one with more counterfeits.
                  If Christianity has more counterfeits than other religions, and counterfeits mean there has to be a genuine article, then the fewer but still existent counterfeits of Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, atheism, Bahaiism, Buddhism, etc mean there must also be genuine versions of each of those (non-)religions. But Christianity and Judaism/Islam/Buddhism etc contradict each other, so it is not possible for there to be a genuine Christianity and a genuine Islam/Shinto/Vodun.

                  So your argument leads to a contradiction.

                  (not that this will stop you)
                  Last edited by Roy; 03-14-2017, 08:06 AM.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    In order for there to be a counterfeit, there has to be the genuine article. Only what is deemed to be of value is counterfeited. ...
                    It certainly has value. Look how rich some of the preachers are.

                    http://myfirstclasslife.com/top-10-l.../?singlepage=1

                    Not all these guys made their millions out of Christianity, but it looks like m ost did. I have never heard of religious leaders in Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism making that sort of cash.
                    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                      So when FOX showed an alien autopsy (counterfeit) that proved a real alien autopsy must have occurred?
                      So when a counterfeit Loch Ness monster is found in Scotland that proves the real one exists?
                      It is counterfeit because there is no real alien to be autopsied. Like the Loch Ness it is something people want to believe. [Why?] Christianity in that vain can be totally false, claims being made that people want to believe, yet is not true. Now are there more counterfeits of alien autopsies than counterfeit money? Why does Christianity have more counterfeits than any other faith system - evening if it being false? What is the perceived value? Why should we want to believe that which is not true?
                      Last edited by 37818; 03-14-2017, 08:09 AM.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        God's message is not garbled.
                        Really? So all those different denominations; they have ALL got it right?

                        Salvation is by God’s grace by faith alone AND by God’s grace received through faith and on-going participation in the work of one’s salvation AND by God’s grace, which Christians receive by faith and by observing the sacraments, because Protestant and Orthodox and Catholic churches have ALL got the message right.
                        My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          It is counterfeit because there is no real alien to be autopsied. Like the Loch Ness it is something people want to believe. [Why?] Christianity in that vain can be totally false, claims being made that people what to believe, yet is not true. Now are there more counterfeits of alien autopsies than counterfeit money? Why does Christianity have more counterfeits than any other faith system - evening if it being false? What is the perceived value? Why should we want to believe that which is not true?
                          As a Christian apologist (of sorts) I know what you're aiming at here.
                          You're working from the idea that the real thing, or something closer to the truth, would elicit more counterfeits.
                          I agree with your thinking here - but I still believe it is a weak argument.

                          The problem with that line of reasoning is that it is also rational to believe there are more counterfeits of Christianity because it has been attached to every major world power over the past two millennia. It would make sense for someone to mimic the religion of the powerful. Also, because of it's wide spread influence every nutcase that is raised in the system will couch his insanity in Christian terms.

                          So while I agree with you I don't find the line of reasoning very convincing.
                          Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            If Christianity has more counterfeits than other religions, and counterfeits mean there has to be a genuine article, then the fewer but still existent counterfeits of Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, atheism, Bahaiism, Buddhism, etc mean there must also be genuine versions of each of those (non-)religions. But Christianity and Judaism/Islam/Buddhism etc contradict each other, so it is not possible for there to be a genuine Christianity and a genuine Islam/Shinto/Vodun.

                            So your argument leads to a contradiction.

                            (not that this will stop you)
                            Counterfeits can be of somethings which have no existence. Then the question needs to be answered, whether there is a genuine Christianity or not, why its popularity for competing claims to be Christianity?

                            Counterfeits what ever they maybe of, are an affront to truth.

                            Now from the perspective that there is really no such thing as God, all God claims then would be an affront to truth.

                            What I am pointing out is Christianity has more counterfeits as a belief system that all the other religious belief systems combined. I believing there is a genuine Christian faith as to be found in the Bible.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                              Really? So all those different denominations; they have ALL got it right?

                              Salvation is by God’s grace by faith alone AND by God’s grace received through faith and on-going participation in the work of one’s salvation AND by God’s grace, which Christians receive by faith and by observing the sacraments, because Protestant and Orthodox and Catholic churches have ALL got the message right.
                              What do those denominations have in common that they would deem to have right? Faith alone in what? Faith alone versus sacraments? And where do sacraments come from? They, the sacrament concept are not found in the Bible.

                              Can you be more specific as to what that gospel message is and why should it be believed?
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                                As a Christian apologist (of sorts) I know what you're aiming at here.
                                You're working from the idea that the real thing, or something closer to the truth, would elicit more counterfeits.
                                I agree with your thinking here - but I still believe it is a weak argument.

                                The problem with that line of reasoning is that it is also rational to believe there are more counterfeits of Christianity because it has been attached to every major world power over the past two millennia. It would make sense for someone to mimic the religion of the powerful. Also, because of it's wide spread influence every nutcase that is raised in the system will couch his insanity in Christian terms.

                                So while I agree with you I don't find the line of reasoning very convincing.
                                How would you distinguish between the genuine Christian faith and what all the false teachings have have in common that deny it?
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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